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This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I think it is important that we share our experiences.  It might not be important for people who have access to specialists with vast and current experience with NIDDM.  As it happens my own GP is just that, a general practitioner.  His experience of diabetics is coloured somewhat by a proportion of people who don’t take sufficient care of themselves or avail themselves of the information that is publicly available.  Needless to say I outperform his other patients so he doesn’t have experience of other high performers to give me feedback about.  Put simply … this is it.  Amongst the people here are those who give a damn and are willing to share their successes and failures as the chips may fall.  Only with such honesty (and better medication) can we hope to do better than the last generation of diabetics. Sometimes that takes courage and the willingness to deal with the fear of criticism from those who can’t countenance any form of supplementation to avoid or ameliorate complications. I agree with you there!  And while I am seeing an Endo., I think he too often sees a lot of patients who do not follow their diet or take their diabetes very seriously.  I always ask him lots of questions and I mention various treatements to him that I’ve read about…not just for diabetes, but also for my thyroid problem.  Today I asked him about what the blood sugar should be at 2 hours after meals because I thought the information he had given me previously was outdated.  He said that was a good question and said that he should change his pamphlets.  His answer was <180 for type 1’s and <140 for type 2’s.  He said some of the drug companies are pushing for <120. The reason being that they are marketing a product to lower post prandial readings.

One thought I like to add is that there is a surfeit of information available these days.  It would take an accelerated learning course for non specialist doctors to keep up with all the research results that pour out these days.  Fortunately most of us have only a few areas in which to become knowledgeable. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email Was the B12 injection site specific? He gave it to me in my shoulder.  Not sure if that’s always where they do it.  Shoulder was very sore for about an hour afterwards.  My purse is a shoulder bag and I couldn’t put it in that spot. I have been trying to track down a source of the methylcobalamin form of Vit B 12 in New Zealand.

Thanks again Julie,   My reason for asking was that in year gone bye I had a spur in my foot and had local injections of cortisone or something similar.  I was curious as to whether any one was having localized B12 injections for neuropathy. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Trying to find out if the primrose oil works, I took it for a period of time, then stopped, then began again and stopped again trying to assess if it was doing anything. During this time, I have had controlled bg. I also get very adequate exercise. I got better with the neuropathy. Iake many vitamin & mineral supplements but nothing herbal. I take brewer’s yeast. It took about a year, actually for me to get better, and I wasn’t very much better, just mildy. Then I began blood pressure medicine, not becuse my pressure was high, but because, I gather it is used to help stave off kidney problems in diabetics. That’s what I was told. Well if I had visited a faith healer after the first couple of doses, I’d have been running around screaming I was "healed". Kaboom ! I was so very much better that I became frightened. Now I know this isn’t a very scientific study, but it had to be the bp medicine. I still take the primrose, mostly out of habit and because I am afraid to not take it because I don’t know for sure what turned me around. I mean, this was just like a lightening bolt.    TDL

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    Yeah, it is a great term.  No doubt it describes that which is prescribed by quackerjack medical professionals, to which many members of this newsgroup have suffered far too much exposure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I LOVE the term PHONEYCEUTICALS !!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post not CC’d by email I just saw my Endo. today and he believes my Neuropathy is caused by my diabetes.  He told me to try taking Evening primrose oil 8 times a day (4 in the morning, 4 in the evening).  He also gave me a shot of vitamin B12. He suggested both treatments.  I didn’t…although I have read about them here. And the pamphlet he gave from about Neuropathy (from bostomedical) says that current reasearch suggests using antioxidants such as Vitam E and Borage oil (GLA).  It says nerve function seems to improve in people who take antioxidants, control blood suar, blood fat levels, and blood pressure. We shall see… — Type 2 Thanks Julie,   I think it is important that we share our experiences.  It might not be important for people who have access to specialists with vast and current experience with NIDDM.  As it happens my own GP is just that, a general practitioner.  His experience of diabetics is coloured somewhat by a proportion of people who don’t take sufficient care of themselves or avail themselves of the information that is publicly available.  Needless to say I outperform his other patients so he doesn’t have experience of other high performers to give me feedback about.  Put simply … this is it.  Amongst the people here are those who give a damn and are willing to share their successes and failures as the chips may fall.  Only with such honesty (and better medication) can we hope to do better than the last generation of diabetics. Sometimes that takes courage and the willingness to deal with the fear of criticism from those who can’t countenance any form of supplementation to avoid or ameliorate complications.

I agree with you there!  And while I am seeing an Endo., I think he too often sees a lot of patients who do not follow their diet or take their diabetes very seriously.  I always ask him lots of questions and I mention various treatements to him that I’ve read about…not just for diabetes, but also for my thyroid problem.  Today I asked him about what the blood sugar should be at 2 hours after meals because I thought the information he had given me previously was outdated.  He said that was a good question and said that he should change his pamphlets.  His answer was <180 for type 1’s and <140 for type 2’s.  He said some of the drug companies are pushing for <120. The reason being that they are marketing a product to lower post prandial readings. Hope it is OK for me ask how much GLA there is in those GLA capsules.

What I bought today was the GNC brand of evening primrose oil.  It is 1300 mg per capsule and each capsule contains Linoleic Acid 910mg, gamma-Linoleic Acid 100mg, and Other Fatty Acids 290.  They come 120 capsules per box. Each box sells for $31.79, but they were having a sale if you bought two boxes.  So I did.  And that totalled $51.51 including 8% tax.  This was the cheapest one that they had.  My Dr. told me to buy it at Costco because I could get the best price there.  They have a website, so I looked it up. They are selling Evening Primrose Oil 500 mg – 240 Softgels for $8.49.  That is a MUCH better deal and I shall get them there from now on.  Now I just have to double check the prescription he wrote to see if it mentions how many mgs. I should take.  Perhaps I am taking too much.  I have only taken one dose so far. Was the B12 injection site specific?

He gave it to me in my shoulder.  Not sure if that’s always where they do it.  Shoulder was very sore for about an hour afterwards.  My purse is a shoulder bag and I couldn’t put it in that spot. I have been trying to track down a source of the methylcobalamin form of Vit B 12 in New Zealand. Thanks Julie,

Sure.  And sorry for the terrible typos earlier.  I was in a hurry.  And sometimes my spell check doesn’t seem to click in…even though it is set to check before posting.

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This post not CC’d by email I just saw my Endo. today and he believes my Neuropathy is caused by my diabetes.  He told me to try taking Evening primrose oil 8 times a day (4 in the morning, 4 in the evening).  He also gave me a shot of vitamin B12.  He suggested both treatments.  I didn’t…although I have read about them here. And the pamphlet he gave from about Neuropathy (from bostomedical) says that current reasearch suggests using antioxidants such as Vitam E and Borage oil (GLA).  It says nerve function seems to improve in people who take antioxidants, control blood suar, blood fat levels, and blood pressure.  We shall see… — Type 2

Thanks Julie,   I think it is important that we share our experiences.  It might not be important for people who have access to specialists with vast and current experience with NIDDM.  As it happens my own GP is just that, a general practitioner.  His experience of diabetics is coloured somewhat by a proportion of people who don’t take sufficient care of themselves or avail themselves of the information that is publicly available.  Needless to say I outperform his other patients so he doesn’t have experience of other high performers to give me feedback about.  Put simply … this is it.  Amongst the people here are those who give a damn and are willing to share their successes and failures as the chips may fall.  Only with such honesty (and better medication) can we hope to do better than the last generation of diabetics. Sometimes that takes courage and the willingness to deal with the fear of criticism from those who can’t countenance any form of supplementation to avoid or ameliorate complications.   Hope it is OK for me ask how much GLA there is in those GLA capsules. Was the B12 injection site specific? I have been trying to track down a source of the methylcobalamin form of Vit B 12 in New Zealand.   Thanks Julie, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email Glad you mentioned alpha lipoic acid. I assume your reference to "alpha limpoic primrose paths" is a weakly derogatory reference to alpha lipoic acid and GLA.   Very clever the way to weave in "limp" and "primrose path" as in limp wrist and leading people up the garden path.  You can always claim it was typo. No one here has to take my opinion or yours or Charles’ for the antioxidant and other properties of alpha lipoic acid, ALA.

<snip I just saw my Endo. today and he believes my Neuropathy is caused by my diabetes.  He told me to try taking Evening primrose oil 8 times a day (4 in the morning, 4 in the evening).  He also gave me a shot of vitamin B12.  He suggested both treatments.  I didn’t…although I have read about them here. And the pamphlet he gave from about Neuropathy (from bostomedical) says that current reasearch suggests using antioxidants such as Vitam E and Borage oil (GLA).  It says nerve function seems to improve in people who take antioxidants, control blood suar, blood fat levels, and blood pressure.  We shall see… — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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To get phonyceuticals into the OED, use it, use it and use it. — Les Ungerleider (please use .(dot).com) The Internet is a haystack full of needles… The above comments reflect only my views and do not commit my employer, my wife or my dog to any positions or actions.

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This post not CC’d by email No Quentin If you HAVE a disease, and any of these snake oil cures, chromium frauds, alpha-limpoic primrose paths etc. were helpful, they WOULD be in the formulary,

G’day G’day Ted, Glad you mentioned alpha lipoic acid.   I assume your reference to "alpha limpoic primrose paths" is a weakly derogatory reference to alpha lipoic acid and GLA.   Very clever the way to weave in "limp" and "primrose path" as in limp wrist and leading people up the garden path.  You can always claim it was typo. No one here has to take my opinion or yours or Charles’ for the antioxidant and other properties of alpha lipoic acid, ALA.   Anyone can go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ and use a search string similar to alpha lipoic acid diabetes alpha lipoic acid glucose alpha lipoic acid neuropathy AND, the Managed care plans DO provide (and mandate) preventative care. Miss your preventative care and they can cut back on paying your hospital bills, AND, if you were in the US, you would know that the Insurance companies DO promote fluoridation, In fact, in New Zealand, Government Life promoted fluoridation (not just lighthouses)

Is Government Life still going?   They aren’t a significant force in the public area.   I live in Hawkes Bay where we have the famous twin cities where some of the original fluoride research was performed.  One city still has fluoride and the other doesn’t. Put simply the actions of underwriters aren’t an infallible guide to action or choices in the real world. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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No Quentin If you HAVE a disease, and any of these snake oil cures, chromium frauds, alpha-limpoic primrose paths etc. were helpful, they WOULD be in the formulary, AND, the Managed care plans DO provide (and mandate) preventative care. Miss your preventative care and they can cut back on paying your hospital bills, AND, if you were in the US, you would know that the Insurance companies DO promote fluoridation, In fact, in New Zealand, Government Life promoted fluoridation (not just lighthouses) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post not CC’d by email G’day G’day Henry,   It’s a great argument Henry.  Hope you haven’t copywrited it because I’d like to use it for some other situations. How about vaccinations? If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. If you are in an HMO, they often ARE mandated, Indemnity plans do not provide for prevention, only mitigation and cure. How about contraception? Contraception is not usually covered by insurance.  Aside from church opposition, Insurance is INDEMNITY, not prevention. If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. Thanks Ted for making my point so clearly,  Underwriters aren’t interested in prevention. The underwriter argument while seemingly convincing is bogus. Let add another instance. If they were they would make fluoridation of public water supplies mandatory. <Yeah right Of course they wouldn’t because that would involve prevention which by your own statements underwriters are not in to.  Conclusions based on singular arguments such as the behaviour of underwriters conveniently ignore all the other issues that get factored in real life. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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GL simply changed their name when they went international.  OTHER countries didn’t care for the confusion. AND, when I take a slam at something, I don’t "pretend it’s a typo" although heaven knows my spelling is bad enough – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post not CC’d by email No Quentin If you HAVE a disease, and any of these snake oil cures, chromium frauds, alpha-limpoic primrose paths etc. were helpful, they WOULD be in the formulary, G’day G’day Ted, Glad you mentioned alpha lipoic acid. I assume your reference to "alpha limpoic primrose paths" is a weakly derogatory reference to alpha lipoic acid and GLA.   Very clever the way to weave in "limp" and "primrose path" as in limp wrist and leading people up the garden path.  You can always claim it was typo.

And, I have NO interest in buying comments on rats, which may or may not (mainly not) be backed up with some type of real study – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No one here has to take my opinion or yours or Charles’ for the antioxidant and other properties of alpha lipoic acid, ALA. Anyone can go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ and use a search string similar to alpha lipoic acid diabetes alpha lipoic acid glucose alpha lipoic acid neuropathy AND, the Managed care plans DO provide (and mandate) preventative care. Miss your preventative care and they can cut back on paying your hospital bills, AND, if you were in the US, you would know that the Insurance companies DO promote fluoridation, In fact, in New Zealand, Government Life promoted fluoridation (not just lighthouses) Is Government Life still going? They aren’t a significant force in the public area. I live in Hawkes Bay where we have the famous twin cities where some of the original fluoride research was performed.  One city still has fluoride and the other doesn’t. Put simply the actions of underwriters aren’t an infallible guide to action or choices in the real world. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email If these renedies "worked," your insurance underwriter would quickly mandate them because they’d save millions!

G’day G’day Henry,   It’s a great argument Henry.  Hope you haven’t copywrited it because I’d like to use it for some other situations. How about vaccinations? If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. How about contraception?   If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email If these renedies "worked," your insurance underwriter would quickly mandate them because they’d save millions! G’day G’day Henry,   It’s a great argument Henry.  Hope you haven’t copywrited it because I’d like to use it for some other situations. How about vaccinations? If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them.

If you are in an HMO, they often ARE mandated, Indemnity plans do not provide for prevention, only mitigation and cure. How about contraception?

Contraception is not usually covered by insurance.  Aside from church opposition, Insurance is INDEMNITY, not prevention. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / / "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – G’day G’day Henry,   It’s a great argument Henry.  Hope you haven’t copywrited it because I’d like to use it for some other situations. How about vaccinations? If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them. If you are in an HMO, they often ARE mandated, Indemnity plans do not provide for prevention, only mitigation and cure. How about contraception? Contraception is not usually covered by insurance.  Aside from church opposition, Insurance is INDEMNITY, not prevention. If these remedies worked insurance underwriters would mandate them.

Thanks Ted for making my point so clearly,  Underwriters aren’t interested in prevention.   The underwriter argument while seemingly convincing is bogus. Let add another instance. If they were they would make fluoridation of public water supplies mandatory. <Yeah right   Of course they wouldn’t because that would involve prevention which by your own statements underwriters are not in to.  Conclusions based on singular arguments such as the behaviour of underwriters conveniently ignore all the other issues that get factored in real life. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Diabetes of either type is a very expensive metabolic disorder due to daily maintenance and the likelihood of long term complications. Every medical underwriter spends millions on diabetes – it’s one of the most costly diseases in the book. There’s a constant barrage of food supplement miracles claimed to "potentiate insulin," "control blood sugar," "stimulate the pancreas," "suppress neuropathy," yada yada. And worse, many offshore companies are offering unapproved drugs and making promises that simply cannot be met. These claims are at least semilegal because there’s little FDA control over such businesses and products. Some of the companies say "…our bananaleaf extract is not recognized by the medical community because there’s not enough profit in it…" They conveniently ignore the fact that "recognition" is an insurance issue. If these renedies "worked," your insurance underwriter would quickly mandate them because they’d save millions! I’m not asserting that all food supplements are useless — there must be some with merit. Fortunately, adding such things as crushed lavender root and "essential oils" to your diet is usually benign, so the only penalty is to your wallet. However, if you stop taking prescribed pharmaceuticals and switch to a supplement, the result can be permanent damage. Rest assured, if there were reality (defined as reproducible double-blind studies) to these claimed miracles, the medical world would quickly adopt them – driven by those who make most medical decisions today, the insurance industry. And for those studies there’s a TON of grant money available – not from pharmaceutical houses but from the NIH, privately endowed institutions, non-profit disease-specific organizations, and similar sources. He who can prove that substance X helps diabetics, or reduces the cost of diabetes, will receive a Nobel Prize. The money and the motivation are both there – so there’s a reason it hasn’t happened. Consumers buy phonyceuticals because we’re a species full of hope. Please be careful! Never shift from a properly-prescribed medication to an over-the-counter supplement without your physician’s approval. Henry Descartes *really* said: "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."

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Consumers buy phonyceuticals because we’re a species full of hope. Please be careful! Never shift from a properly-prescribed medication to an over-the-counter supplement without your physician’s approval. Henry Descartes *really* said: "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."

I agree that phonyceuticals should become a standard word here.   Henry’s post should be nominated for "Best post of the month".                                   Guy Williams

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Outstanding summary!  Ya done good.  Very, very good.                        Harvey —  Harvey H. Green     "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug  

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I LOVE the term PHONEYCEUTICALS !!!!

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A VERY SINCERE and HEARTFELT BZ Henry. VERY WELL STATED, a truly outstanding summation of the situation. Too bad others aren’t as articulate,  concise, and well spoken as you are. Just to add some general advice, if you see/hear something advertised, just ask your pharmacist about it. If it is snake oil through the mails, he/she will damn well let you know. If it is a common OTC supplement, she/he can probably print out a fact sheet for you, and give you whatever personal knowledge he/she has about it. T2, 54, 2 1/2 yrs, Glucotrol, Prinivil, Diet, Exercise

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