Question:

I don’t know what effect it might have on the eyes, but ginger has often been mentioned as a natural motion-sickness remedy.  Try a search on Dr Weil’s website: http://www.drweil.com (Dr. Andrew Weil is an MD who advocates, among other things, greater research into the effectiveness of traditional herbal remedies.) My wife once tried the "pressure point" wristbands on a cruise and they didn’t help her. There is also the Transderm Scop patch, by prescription in the USA.  Again, I have no idea what effect that might have related to glaucoma. Russ Blocher – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TLG wrote:

Many of the medications for motion sickness cause pupil dilation, which is contraindicated for glaucoma patients.  Anyone know of an effective anti-nausea med that is okay for people with glaucoma? TIA.

Response:

Many of the medications for motion sickness cause pupil dilation, which is contraindicated for glaucoma patients.  Anyone know of an effective anti-nausea med that is okay for people with glaucoma? TIA.

Response:

TIA brings up a good point, are there other common types of over-the-couter medications that should be avoided?  Things like maybe antihistamines, decongestants, etc? I have recently been diagnosed with pigmentary glaucoma, and I am now taking Timoptic XE.  Is dilation a problem for all types of glaucoma, or only certain ones like PG? Russ Blocher – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TLG wrote:

Many of the medications for motion sickness cause pupil dilation, which is contraindicated for glaucoma patients.  Anyone know of an effective anti-nausea med that is okay for people with glaucoma? TIA.

Response:

Question:

We didn’t realize that one of the poodles was blind until mom noticed that he no longer looked up at the sky when going out the doggy door. Black clouds no longer terrified him..  He got along fine, didn’t bump into furniture or anything.  Of course, we never moved anything either (;  Dogs use their noses a lot in navigation- I have heard of people marking things like stairs with various scents, like vanilla. I even know one person who made "canes" for her dog out of long plastic cable ties attached to a holder so they stuck out just past his nose.  Kept the dog from banging his nose into things- he learned to tap things with the plastic bits (sort of like having extra-long whiskers). — Ruth Mays Beautiful Downtown Cinnaminson It’s important to keep an open mind, But not so open that your brains fall out.

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Thanks! Cate

Response:

We didn’t realize that one of the poodles was blind until mom noticed that he no longer looked up at the sky when going out the doggy door. Black clouds no longer terrified him..  He got along fine, didn’t bump into furniture or anything.  Of course, we never moved anything either (;

That’ll be us, too. Never move anything, never clean anything. And it won’t be any different than it is now. ) Cate

Response:

Well, one of my 3 dogs is a 17 yr old airedale x cattledog and he is nearly completely blind.  His sight started deteriorating at about age 15 or so.  He is NOT an aging couch potato.  At age 10 he was clocked at 35 mph going after an escaped bull (he outran the pickup).  He has probably slowed to below 25 mph, but that’s it.  He is still a happy and very active character.  We have stairs and doggy doors and other obstacles that he has no problem with.  He too now has a guide.  We didn’t get the other dog for him, but when the sight started to go a bond formed between them.  They run touching sides.  I think the 17 yr old terrier is slowing for the 4 yr old Pip (collie x shepard x retriever who is less enthusiastic about high speed running) that we got.  The only problem is if they are running in the pasture and the other dog goes thru a wire fence.  Usually, because the collie x is larger the terrier has no problem, but he did misjudge once a few months ago.  We do keep him in more.  But he loves a run so much I just can’t bear to deny him the chance now and then.  He still lives a very full life and does not seem to feel at all disadvantaged.  (P.S. never close the doggy door, Ours runs thru it going full throttle and could be seriously injured if we ever closed it.) Before you buy.

Response:

long plastic cable ties attached to a holder so they stuck out just past his nose. Kept the dog from banging his nose into things-

  How brilliant!  Never underestimate a person who loves their dog.   Dandy, a tiny blind dog I had during his final year, would trip and fall occasionally, but almost never ran into things. This, particularly, puzzled me.  Approaching something big, like a curb (big for him), he sensed something.  He would stop and stretch out a foreleg until he brushed it, then nose about to explore it.   Do you think he sensed a change in air pressure?*    BTW, Cate, do you remember the James Herriot story about the man who was suicidal because his dog was going blind?  It’s very warming.   *Intrigued, I tried finding my way blindfolded.  Sometimes, when relaxed, I would "sense" a wall.  Never asked a blind person about this.

Response:

long plastic cable ties attached to a holder so they stuck out just past his nose. Kept the dog from banging his nose into things-   How brilliant!  Never underestimate a person who loves their dog.   Dandy, a tiny blind dog I had during his final year, would trip and fall occasionally, but almost never ran into things. This, particularly, puzzled me.  Approaching something big, like a curb (big for him), he sensed something.  He would stop and stretch out a foreleg until he brushed it, then nose about to explore it.   Do you think he sensed a change in air pressure?*

Probably he sensed sound waves bouncing off the curb. Have you ever been in an unfamiliar place that’s pitch black dark, like visiting a friend’s house, or staying at a hotel? Have you noticed how you ’sense’ that you’re about to walk into a wall? I have nothing scientific to back this up, but personally, I can tell by the echo or non-echo of my footsteps, breathing, household noises, etc. that there’s something really solid and potentially painful right in front of me.    BTW, Cate, do you remember the James Herriot story about the man who was suicidal because his dog was going blind?  It’s very warming.

Never read it. Fortunately I don’t think I’ll get to that point with Orson. I’m thrilled to have him any way I can get him.   *Intrigued, I tried finding my way blindfolded.  Sometimes, when relaxed, I would "sense" a wall.  Never asked a blind person about this.

I used to work very closely with a person who was blind from birth, and who also was mildly to moderately mentally retarded. I talked to her about how she got around, but it was difficult to ascertain since she didn’t understand that she wasn’t the norm. She thought everyone got around just like she did. She did explain, however, that she can ‘hear’ where the walls are–or maybe where the openings in the walls are–when she’s walking, and, often, where stairs are and when they end (when going up only). Cate

Response:

BTW, Cate, do you remember the James Herriot story about the man who was suicidal because his dog was going blind? It’s very warming. — Never read it. Fortunately I don’t think I’ll get to that point with Orson. I’m thrilled to have him any way I can get him.

  Didn’t mean to suggest we were gonna have to lock up sharp objects But, look for if, if only because he wrote so well. (It’s in "Dog Stories" as well as one of the original books.)  He recommended that the man start walking in the same places so his dog could find his way after he lost his sight.  Never found this necessary with Dandy; he found his way around strange places quite well, thank you.   Your comments about perceiving obstacles without sight are intriguing. Studies must have been done about this.

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience.

Sigh. I had agility plans for Orson this fall, which I’m not going to call off unless I’m advised to by the Cornell optho. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him?

Yes, definitely. But there’s reason to suspect Orson’s peripheral vision is better than his front-facing vision. Lately he’s been having trouble seeing things right in front of him until he moves to the side and seems to see them out of the corner of his eye. Cate

Response:

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it?

I can’t share anything personally, but a friend’s Yellow Lab was diagnosed with PRA about 3 months ago – she’ll be blind within the year.  :( A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption?

I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him? — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

Well, one of my 3 dogs is a 17 yr old airedale x cattledog and he is nearly completely blind.  His sight started deteriorating at about age 15 or so.  He is NOT an aging couch potato.  At age 10 he was clocked at 35 mph going after an escaped bull (he outran the pickup).  He has probably slowed to below 25 mph, but that’s it.  He is still a happy and very active character.  We have stairs and doggy doors and other obstacles that he has no problem with.  He too now has a guide.  We didn’t get the other dog for him, but when the sight started to go a bond formed between them.  They run touching sides.  I think the 17 yr old terrier is slowing for the 4 yr old Pip (collie x shepard x retriever who is less enthusiastic about high speed running) that we got.  The only problem is if they are running in the pasture and the other dog goes thru a wire fence.  Usually, because the collie x is larger the terrier has no problem, but he did misjudge once a few months ago.  We do keep him in more.  But he loves a run so much I just can’t bear to deny him the chance now and then.  He still lives a very full life and does not seem to feel at all disadvantaged.  (P.S. never close the doggy door, Ours runs thru it going full throttle and could be seriously injured if we ever closed it.) Before you buy.

Response:

  Cate. I’m probably over-advising,

Not true. I need this.   Pip is the only small dog among my or my friends’ packs, so I thought he needed a companion.  Drove a distance to a shelter that allows your dog to socialize with their rescues.  Pip likes few dogs, but immediately struck up a bond with Dandy who I didn’t know was blind until they told me.  My point is: for such a special need, it might be good if Orson could choose his own companion.

This is something I didn’t immediately think of; thanks for bringing it up. Orson will definitely need to audition potential companions, because he’s rather, erm, exuberant. It takes a tolerant and energetic dog to be pals with Orson. I’d hate to bring home some poor rescue dog, only to have him wishing he’d instead landed a nice quiet solitary life on someone else’s sofa. Cate

Response:

  Cate. I’m probably over-advising, but one thing you might keep in mind.   Pip is the only small dog among my or my friends’ packs, so I thought he needed a companion.  Drove a distance to a shelter that allows your dog to socialize with their rescues.  Pip likes few dogs, but immediately struck up a bond with Dandy who I didn’t know was blind until they told me.  My point is: for such a special need, it might be good if Orson could choose his own companion.   Since I’m thinking about it, gotta tell you this.  Put both little dogs in the passenger seat to drive home.  Pip stood up with his front feet on the window.  After a bit, he began to look over his shoulder at Dandy, then got down and nudged him until he, too, stood up where he could sniff the breeze.  That’s when I knew it was going to work.

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Thanks! Cate

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it?

I can’t share anything personally, but a friend’s Yellow Lab was diagnosed with PRA about 3 months ago – she’ll be blind within the year.  :( A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption?

I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him? — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience.

Sigh. I had agility plans for Orson this fall, which I’m not going to call off unless I’m advised to by the Cornell optho. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him?

Yes, definitely. But there’s reason to suspect Orson’s peripheral vision is better than his front-facing vision. Lately he’s been having trouble seeing things right in front of him until he moves to the side and seems to see them out of the corner of his eye. Cate

Response:

  Cate, forgotten your "dog-situation".  Does Orson have a companion, now?

No, he’s an only child. We’ve only had him 7 months. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him.    Had an awfulwonderful year with a tiny dog already blind from a terminal brain tumor.  My Maltese immediately turned himself into a guide and protector (very out of character for him.).

I love to hear that. Sorry about the awful parts of your year. Have you considered "auditioning" companions for Orson?

Honestly, I haven’t gotten that far. But I know that if Orson loses his sight, I’ll definitely want to. If for nothing else than to exercise Orson, because I don’t think I’d feel comfortable continuing his daily off-leash forays at the lake. Maybe now I can get the Boston Terrier I’ve been wanting. From rescue. After DH passes out and recovers, then leaves me and comes back. ) One cat tested his patience. One cat and one dog (who hate each other still) drive him around the bend. I brought up the idea of another dog yesterday. *Not* the right time. Cate

Response:

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

  Cate, forgotten your "dog-situation".  Does Orson have a companion, now? The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him.

   Had an awfulwonderful year with a tiny dog already blind from a terminal brain tumor.  My Maltese immediately turned himself into a guide and protector (very out of character for him.).  Have you considered "auditioning" companions for Orson?

Response:

Well, one of my 3 dogs is a 17 yr old airedale x cattledog and he is nearly completely blind.  His sight started deteriorating at about age 15 or so.  He is NOT an aging couch potato.  At age 10 he was clocked at 35 mph going after an escaped bull (he outran the pickup).  He has probably slowed to below 25 mph, but that’s it.  He is still a happy and very active character.  We have stairs and doggy doors and other obstacles that he has no problem with.  He too now has a guide.  We didn’t get the other dog for him, but when the sight started to go a bond formed between them.  They run touching sides.  I think the 17 yr old terrier is slowing for the 4 yr old Pip (collie x shepard x retriever who is less enthusiastic about high speed running) that we got.  The only problem is if they are running in the pasture and the other dog goes thru a wire fence.  Usually, because the collie x is larger the terrier has no problem, but he did misjudge once a few months ago.  We do keep him in more.  But he loves a run so much I just can’t bear to deny him the chance now and then.  He still lives a very full life and does not seem to feel at all disadvantaged.  (P.S. never close the doggy door, Ours runs thru it going full throttle and could be seriously injured if we ever closed it.) Before you buy.

Response:

  Cate. I’m probably over-advising,

Not true. I need this.   Pip is the only small dog among my or my friends’ packs, so I thought he needed a companion.  Drove a distance to a shelter that allows your dog to socialize with their rescues.  Pip likes few dogs, but immediately struck up a bond with Dandy who I didn’t know was blind until they told me.  My point is: for such a special need, it might be good if Orson could choose his own companion.

This is something I didn’t immediately think of; thanks for bringing it up. Orson will definitely need to audition potential companions, because he’s rather, erm, exuberant. It takes a tolerant and energetic dog to be pals with Orson. I’d hate to bring home some poor rescue dog, only to have him wishing he’d instead landed a nice quiet solitary life on someone else’s sofa. Cate

Response:

  Cate. I’m probably over-advising, but one thing you might keep in mind.   Pip is the only small dog among my or my friends’ packs, so I thought he needed a companion.  Drove a distance to a shelter that allows your dog to socialize with their rescues.  Pip likes few dogs, but immediately struck up a bond with Dandy who I didn’t know was blind until they told me.  My point is: for such a special need, it might be good if Orson could choose his own companion.   Since I’m thinking about it, gotta tell you this.  Put both little dogs in the passenger seat to drive home.  Pip stood up with his front feet on the window.  After a bit, he began to look over his shoulder at Dandy, then got down and nudged him until he, too, stood up where he could sniff the breeze.  That’s when I knew it was going to work.

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Thanks! Cate

Response:

Cate, Check this web site:  Owners of Blind Dogs, http://www.blinddogs.com/.

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it?

I can’t share anything personally, but a friend’s Yellow Lab was diagnosed with PRA about 3 months ago – she’ll be blind within the year.  :( A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption?

I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him? — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? I can only relate fading eyesight to agility, not obedience.

Sigh. I had agility plans for Orson this fall, which I’m not going to call off unless I’m advised to by the Cornell optho. My friend’s lab (Maddy) is an excellent agility dog and her owner, Val, is now entering all the trials that she can, since Maddy lives for agility. Val is having to alter her training style: because of Maddy’s loss of peripheral vision (I understand that this goes first with PRA) handler focus is no longer possible and Maddy often heads for the wrong obstacle.  It’s getting to the point that Maddy will hesitate before all obstacles because she thinks that she’s going to be called off. You might be experiencing problems similar to the "handler focus" problem that Val & Maddy are having – maybe it’s Orson’s loss of peripheral vision.  Do your obedience exercises work better if you’re standing directly in front of him?

Yes, definitely. But there’s reason to suspect Orson’s peripheral vision is better than his front-facing vision. Lately he’s been having trouble seeing things right in front of him until he moves to the side and seems to see them out of the corner of his eye. Cate

Response:

  Cate, forgotten your "dog-situation".  Does Orson have a companion, now?

No, he’s an only child. We’ve only had him 7 months. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him.    Had an awfulwonderful year with a tiny dog already blind from a terminal brain tumor.  My Maltese immediately turned himself into a guide and protector (very out of character for him.).

I love to hear that. Sorry about the awful parts of your year. Have you considered "auditioning" companions for Orson?

Honestly, I haven’t gotten that far. But I know that if Orson loses his sight, I’ll definitely want to. If for nothing else than to exercise Orson, because I don’t think I’d feel comfortable continuing his daily off-leash forays at the lake. Maybe now I can get the Boston Terrier I’ve been wanting. From rescue. After DH passes out and recovers, then leaves me and comes back. ) One cat tested his patience. One cat and one dog (who hate each other still) drive him around the bend. I brought up the idea of another dog yesterday. *Not* the right time. Cate

Response:

Orson is likely developing progressive retinal atrophy. We have an opthalmology consult at Cornell, but not for another 4 weeks. I am not panicking, even if it does turn out to be true. I figure a blind Orson is better than no Orson at all. Can anyone share anything about having lived with a blind dog, and how the dog and you coped with it? A more practical matter: I’m assuming I should now speed up his obedience training (even though small town, low frequency of classes) so that we’re as good a team as we can be by the time he has no sight. (His sight is currently not great, but that may be b/c of his constant pupil dilation not allowing him to focus.) Is this a bad assumption? A friend told me of how her sister owned a dog for 5 years before anyone knew it was blind. The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him. It was only when the seeing dog died that the owners discovered the blindness. Without his companion, the blind dog acted helpless and depressed, bumped into furniture, lost his way in the house a lot. When he got a new dog companion, all was apparently back to normal. Cate

Response:

  Cate, forgotten your "dog-situation".  Does Orson have a companion, now? The blind dog lived with a seeing dog, and learned nearly everything he needed to know from him.

   Had an awfulwonderful year with a tiny dog already blind from a terminal brain tumor.  My Maltese immediately turned himself into a guide and protector (very out of character for him.).  Have you considered "auditioning" companions for Orson?

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI Ryan A week ago my Alaskan Mal bitch (5.1/2 yrs) had almost excatly the same symptoms, except it was her left eye, the pupil was dilated and didn’t contract. The eye was swollen and was also seeping slightly. She had trouble opening it. My vet felt it was an infection (deep inside the eye) of the pupil as he didn’t believe that a cataract would develop that quickly and put her on oral antibiotics plus two different eye drops. He also said we should see an improvement in about 48hrs. Well it worked and a week later, her eye is normal again. I am not saying the diagnosis on your bitch is wrong but I would get another opinion if I were you just to be safe. Quite possibly it is what your vet suggested so I would still continue with the meds prescribed in the meantime. Keri

My female dog was born with cataracts and she’s now almost a year old. I’m looking for a good doctor who can perform cataract surgery but won’t be so exspensive. Both of her eyes are completely cloudy around the pupil area but she can still see somehow, still not so well. I think she developed this because she’s a mix breed of german-shepard and pit-bull or boxer.

Response:

I posted the original message and I didn’t mean to give the wrong impression. We have been following thr vet’s instructions to the ‘T’.  Which means getting up (or coming home) every six hours to administer her medicines. I just thought his diagnosis was a little odd.  I have no intention of doing anything which might endanger her in any way. I do appreciate your response though. Thank you, Ryan VanMiddlesworth

 What does everyone think? I for one think that you need to keep in close contact with your doctors, and follow their instructions to the letter.

Response:

HI Ryan A week ago my Alaskan Mal bitch (5.1/2 yrs) had almost excatly the same symptoms, except it was her left eye, the pupil was dilated and didn’t contract. The eye was swollen and was also seeping slightly. She had trouble opening it. My vet felt it was an infection (deep inside the eye) of the pupil as he didn’t believe that a cataract would develop that quickly and put her on oral antibiotics plus two different eye drops. He also said we should see an improvement in about 48hrs. Well it worked and a week later, her eye is normal again. I am not saying the diagnosis on your bitch is wrong but I would get another opinion if I were you just to be safe. Quite possibly it is what your vet suggested so I would still continue with the meds prescribed in the meantime. Keri

Response:

 What does everyone think? I for one think that you need to keep in close contact with your doctors, and follow their instructions to the letter.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dog experts of the world, My 1 1/2 year old, female, Siberian Husky (named Juneau) is have some pretty serious eye problems (in here right eye only), and I am looking to the newsgroups for help.  I think the more info you give, the better the advice you get.  So here is the whole story: ——- Saturday (2/13/99) morning both of Juneau’s eyes were fine.  I don’t recall seeing any cloudiness in her eye but she certainly wasn’t squinting.  My wife and I went out and when we returned that evening we noticed that Juneau was trying very hard to keep her right eyelid shut. After opening her eyelid I noticed that her right pupil was contracted, and stayed contracted, while her left pupil would react to light normally.  There were no lacerations and there was no seepage.  No sign of traumatic injury.  By the way, the whole time she has acted completely normal (besides squinting her right eye), she is lively and chipper as ever.  I got some ophthalmic neosporin and put it in her eye on Saturday, twice Sunday and Monday morning. Sunday – Juneau was still trying to keep her eye shut but would open it if she really needed to see (to catch a treat, or when she would get excited, etc.).  Her pupil dilated some more but was still not the same size as her left eye (when it was dilated).  Since the pupil dilated a little more we were able to notice that the entire pupil was cloudy.  By late Sunday she was keeping her eye open most of the time but would still partially squint. Monday – we took Juneau to the vet.  He looked at her eye and said it looked like a cataract but thought she was too young for a cataract.  He also didn’t know why she would be trying to keep her eye shut and why her pupil wasn’t dilating.  He recommended that we take her to an animal eye doctor in Cincinnati. Tuesday – we called the eye doctor in Cincy and he said to bring her in immediately.  After examining her he said he was sure it was a cataract.  He said it could lead to glaucoma and/or retinal detachment. He also said that the onset can take place very rapidly (almost overnight) and could cause inflammation and pain, which is why she would be trying to keep it shut.  He gave us 2 different eye drops, 1 eye ointment, and 1 oral medication.  She is supposed to go back in two weeks. —– Here are my questions: Does the animal eye doctor’s diagnosis sound correct?  I have never heard of cataracts with such rapid onset.  I have scoured the Internet and have not found anything on cataracts being painful or causing mismatched pupil dilation.  Also, I haven’t found anything relating cataracts with glaucoma or detached retinas. Are my concerns valid? What do you people think? Please if you have ANY thoughts on this let me know, no matter how insignificant.  I certainly don’t mind being mail bombed with info on this one. Thanks very much (in advance), Ryan VanMiddlesworth

Response:

Dog experts of the world, My 1 1/2 year old, female, Siberian Husky (named Juneau) is have some pretty serious eye problems (in here right eye only), and I am looking to the newsgroups for help.  I think the more info you give, the better the advice you get.  So here is the whole story: ——- Saturday (2/13/99) morning both of Juneau’s eyes were fine.  I don’t recall seeing any cloudiness in her eye but she certainly wasn’t squinting.  My wife and I went out and when we returned that evening we noticed that Juneau was trying very hard to keep her right eyelid shut. After opening her eyelid I noticed that her right pupil was contracted, and stayed contracted, while her left pupil would react to light normally.  There were no lacerations and there was no seepage.  No sign of traumatic injury.  By the way, the whole time she has acted completely normal (besides squinting her right eye), she is lively and chipper as ever.  I got some ophthalmic neosporin and put it in her eye on Saturday, twice Sunday and Monday morning. Sunday – Juneau was still trying to keep her eye shut but would open it if she really needed to see (to catch a treat, or when she would get excited, etc.).  Her pupil dilated some more but was still not the same size as her left eye (when it was dilated).  Since the pupil dilated a little more we were able to notice that the entire pupil was cloudy.  By late Sunday she was keeping her eye open most of the time but would still partially squint. Monday – we took Juneau to the vet.  He looked at her eye and said it looked like a cataract but thought she was too young for a cataract.  He also didn’t know why she would be trying to keep her eye shut and why her pupil wasn’t dilating.  He recommended that we take her to an animal eye doctor in Cincinnati. Tuesday – we called the eye doctor in Cincy and he said to bring her in immediately.  After examining her he said he was sure it was a cataract.  He said it could lead to glaucoma and/or retinal detachment. He also said that the onset can take place very rapidly (almost overnight) and could cause inflammation and pain, which is why she would be trying to keep it shut.  He gave us 2 different eye drops, 1 eye ointment, and 1 oral medication.  She is supposed to go back in two weeks. —– Here are my questions: Does the animal eye doctor’s diagnosis sound correct?  I have never heard of cataracts with such rapid onset.  I have scoured the Internet and have not found anything on cataracts being painful or causing mismatched pupil dilation.  Also, I haven’t found anything relating cataracts with glaucoma or detached retinas. Are my concerns valid? What do you people think? Please if you have ANY thoughts on this let me know, no matter how insignificant.  I certainly don’t mind being mail bombed with info on this one. Thanks very much (in advance), Ryan VanMiddlesworth

Response:

Question:

One can only pray that some of the people who post frequently about violence on this group actually don’t do that with their pets. However I suspect its more on the order how it works in dogs that a growl is a snarl is a bite kind of situation – if the people get away with spewing online they will just get all the bolder about really doing the actions they fantasize.

Fantasy pretty well describes all of your posts. Before you buy.

Response:

  Patient with dogs; impatient with people. Does that describe some of the rest of us?

Chris… I love your observations. This fits me to a tee.   I am sort of a trouble-shooter at my full-time job. I have to travel around, fixing other people’s screw-ups, trying to train those people (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t) and answering questions.   I am outwardly patient. But inside part of me is screaming, "You blathering idiot, how’s *did* you get this job?" But, then I go home & all is right with the world when I’ve got Coda & Guiness.   Running around like dorks, playing together.   Even during training sessions, there are trying times, but *never* like I have with people. Is my expectation threshold just lower with the dogs?   I have two signs on my corkboard (which is primarily covered w/ pet photos) at work.  One says, "The longer I work here, the more I am convinced that some parents belief paste is part of the food groups."    The other one says, "The way you treat your dog tells the world what kind of a person you are.   Really." The dogs don’t speak.   Maybe that’s why I don’t have children? "Ignorance is bliss" or maybe that quote that I’m not sure I can remember it all…"Better to hold your tongue & let people think your an idiot, than to use it and prove them right." Shelly, Coda & Guiness…

Response:

I am outwardly patient. But inside part of me is screaming

  You know, Shelly, I think these two sentences sum it up.  With people, we are are juggling several layers at the same time.  With dogs, we experience blessed simplicity.

Response:

  Speaking of simplicity ….. Ten Reasons Why It’s Great To Be A Dog Submitted By Hank 1. If it itches, you can reach it. And no matter where it itches, no one will be offended if you scratch it in public. 2. No one notices if you have hair growing in weird places as you get older. 3. Personal hygiene is a blast: No one expects you to take a bath every day, and you don’t even have to comb your own hair. 4. Having a wet nose is considered a sign of good health. 5. No one thinks less of you for passing gas. Some people might actually think you’re cute. 6. Who needs a big home entertainment system? A bone or an old shoe can entertain you for hours. 7. You can spend hours just smelling stuff. 8. No one ever expects you to pay for lunch or dinner. You never have to worry about table manners, and if you gain weight, it’s someone else’s fault. 9. It doesn’t take much to make you happy. You’re always excited to see the same old people. All they have to do is leave the room for five minutes and come back. 10. Every garbage can looks like a cold buffet to you.

Response:

#10. For the *VERY* first time, Coda snatched something from the trash today. What a  bad boy. Eeesh Shelly, Coda (It was a wrapper from a chicken, Mom!!) & Guiness..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Speaking of simplicity ….. Ten Reasons Why It’s Great To Be A Dog Submitted By Hank 1. If it itches, you can reach it. And no matter where it itches, no one will be offended if you scratch it in public. 2. No one notices if you have hair growing in weird places as you get older. 3. Personal hygiene is a blast: No one expects you to take a bath every day, and you don’t even have to comb your own hair. 4. Having a wet nose is considered a sign of good health. 5. No one thinks less of you for passing gas. Some people might actually think you’re cute. 6. Who needs a big home entertainment system? A bone or an old shoe can entertain you for hours. 7. You can spend hours just smelling stuff. 8. No one ever expects you to pay for lunch or dinner. You never have to worry about table manners, and if you gain weight, it’s someone else’s fault. 9. It doesn’t take much to make you happy. You’re always excited to see the same old people. All they have to do is leave the room for five minutes and come back. 10. Every garbage can looks like a cold buffet to you.

Response:

 Patient with dogs; impatient with people. Does that describe some of the rest of us? That sure describes me!  Actually, I am really patient with people now, but it

took a lot of work and effort on my part to get there.  The inner me just wants to walk up to my coworkers and tell them all off.  It’s easy to be nice to my dog. I have the kind of job that encourages assertiveness and the ability to take charge of a situation and ACT.  Not to mention not screwing up on any details.  And we all work by ourselves and command our own little corner of the company.  My on the job persona would be incompetent as a dog keeper. jdoee and Stacey Dog – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   (Change the name, change the tenor?)   Often meet a fella with 2 dogs on our evening walks whose job requires long, tension-filled days.  "When things get rough," he says, "I just hang on ’til ‘dog-time’."   Wonder why some people profit so much more than others from time spent with their dogs.  Is this what separates "dog-people" from "civilians"?    BTW, I wouldn’t want to work for this guy; I gather, from conversation, he’s a micro-manager who runs a tight ship. Yet, he’s permissive with his dogs.

Response:

Funny — my first reaction was to give the remaining steak to the one who didn’t steal. But which? What a sucker, moi. Jane Webb

  Deputy Dawg would have taken DNA and pawprints off the counter.   Polygraphs would be more accurate, it’s said, if pupil-dilation were considered.  Were either of their eyes dilated?   Of course, there was probably no feeling of guilt present

Response:

Quote: For the *VERY* first time, Coda snatched something from the trash today. Tomight, getting dinner, two little steaks were on the drainboard. Both dogs hanging about waiting for mushroom stems. I wasn’t really even aware of turning around, but a couple of minutes later, when I went to do something to the steaks, there was only ONE. Both dogs licking chops.(mushroom stems) Neither dog had noticeable steak breath. Moonpie has NEVER done such a thing. And Raisin does spend a good deal of time looking at the countertops. Funny — my first reaction was to give the remaining steak to the one who didn’t steal. But which? What a sucker, moi. Jane Webb  & Moonpie & Raisin Pie

Response:

*laugh*  Oh my. No counter stealing here…unless it’s from those eeevil kitties. (Caught the little one up there licking marinade from a nice pair of rib eyes ones.) The trash *was* pretty full, and there was an empty cat-food can in there, which I later found out in the yard.   I’d been cooking & baking all day, the lid was down, but a little slip of the wrapper was probably hanging out or something as a teaser. Of course, we had guests over last night & I caught him sauntering past the trashcan, giving it lingering sniffs each time.   My friend says, "The minute your back was turned, he went right over there & glued his nose to it."     She’s got dogs.   She understands. Eeesh.   Again, naughty boy. Shelly, Coda & Guiness

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quote: For the *VERY* first time, Coda snatched something from the trash today. Tomight, getting dinner, two little steaks were on the drainboard. Both dogs hanging about waiting for mushroom stems. I wasn’t really even aware of turning around, but a couple of minutes later, when I went to do something to the steaks, there was only ONE. Both dogs licking chops.(mushroom stems) Neither dog had noticeable steak breath. Moonpie has NEVER done such a thing. And Raisin does spend a good deal of time looking at the countertops. Funny — my first reaction was to give the remaining steak to the one who didn’t steal. But which? What a sucker, moi. Jane Webb  & Moonpie & Raisin Pie

Response:

One can only pray that some of the people who post frequently about violence on this group actually don’t do that with their pets. However I suspect its more on the order how it works in dogs that a growl is a snarl is a bite kind of situation – if the people get away with spewing online they will just get all the bolder about really doing the actions they fantasize. I suspect your micro manager just has higher expectations for the employees and thus a higher level of frustration if the people do not perform as expected. Nancy

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Patient with dogs; impatient with people. Does that describe some of the rest of us?

Response:

  (Change the name, change the tenor?)   Often meet a fella with 2 dogs on our evening walks whose job requires long, tension-filled days.  "When things get rough," he says, "I just hang on ’til ‘dog-time’."   Wonder why some people profit so much more than others from time spent with their dogs.  Is this what separates "dog-people" from "civilians"?    BTW, I wouldn’t want to work for this guy; I gather, from conversation, he’s a micro-manager who runs a tight ship. Yet, he’s permissive with his dogs.   Patient with dogs; impatient with people. Does that describe some of the rest of us?

Response:

You’re so pathetic.  You seem to think animal fat supplements are BAD for carnivores!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, I hope the don’t judge.  Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack. Well, yours eat pure bacon grease, of course they’d prefer cat crap. They’d probably prefer to be owned by a human, too. Christy

Response:

Gee, I hope the don’t judge.  Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack.

Well, yours eat pure bacon grease, of course they’d prefer cat crap. They’d probably prefer to be owned by a human, too. Christy

Response:

Gee, I hope the don’t judge.  Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack.

Elame…read what you wrote above…slowly…and then tell me that you’re not on DRUGS, okay? HAHA! — Dogman (Who didn’t realize until 11/7/00 that he lived in a banana republic…) http://www.i1.net/~dogman Proud "Gang of Thugs" member in good standing.

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Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack.

LOL!! ….Kitty box crunchies…. Renee

Response:

No wonder "christie" showed up-  someone said CAT CRAP and there she was!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, I hope the don’t judge.  Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack. Well, yours eat pure bacon grease, of course they’d prefer cat crap. They’d probably prefer to be owned by a human, too. Christy

Response:

  Stutterers, we are told, speak fluently when conversing with dogs. Merely hearing "Hello", from a human causes our blood pressure to rise; the presence of a dog causes it to fall.   Is this at the heart of our obsession?  We are free to "be" in the presence of our dogs?   (I’m in pursuit, today, of the human-canine bond.

Response:

Gee, I hope the don’t judge.  Who would listen to a dog’s judgement anyway? They thing cat crap is a great snack.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Stutterers, we are told, speak fluently when conversing with dogs. Merely hearing "Hello", from a human causes our blood pressure to rise; the presence of a dog causes it to fall.   Is this at the heart of our obsession?  We are free to "be" in the presence of our dogs?   (I’m in pursuit, today, of the human-canine bond.

Response:

That’s an interesting observation.  I’ve heared (and experienced with someone I know) that singing has the same affect.  Maybe it’s also something about the flow you get when you talk to animals that makes people more comfortable.                              -Reta

Response:

Question:

I am interested in where DC got the theories concerning height and dominance and how he / she relates this to flock leaders. Hi DC, who was it that discounted this theory 20 years ago and what was the proof shown? Cheers Steve

Response:

Steve It is well-established that parrot flocks have no leaders by every major study of wild flocks, and even in the observation of feral flocks in California. BY extention a "leaderless society" demonstates that no "pecking order" or domination is part of the parrots social equation. "Heighth-dominance" is a theory that is really a misunderstanding – a bird that is being aggressive when he is higher than you is not attempting to gain a "political edge" or dominate you – he is merely protecting his underside and lower body  from attack (this is instinctual). It is entirely a DEFENSIVE behavior. This behavior can modified through training. A true dominance drive probably could not be modified. Being a "flock animal" does not translate to being a "pack animal". A few writers, completely unfamiliar with parrot behavior started promoting the "dominance" idea back in the 70s, and despite our greater understanding of parrot behavior today, uninformed authors just keep repeating what was written then (because most have no real experience with parrots beyond owning a bird or two, and repeating cliches) This kind of "research" has also propagated such goof ball concepts as "hormonal" behavior and "bonding"….it sounds good, but no observational or empirical data exists to back-up the concepts) I get most of my "theories" from 30 years of working with parrots in the wild, training and presenting parrot shows, and working with most of the true parrot experts in the business (not the Blanchards and other "pet parrot behaviorists" that have done so much to cloud the facts about parrot behavior) Most of the stuff I know from experience does conflict with "pet pop culture", which is no real surprise…most of the information available to the average pet owner originated many years ago, and has never been updated in the magazines and books that are available via the pet industry and pet magazines…. Doug / DC

Response:

Could you please suggest some books or articles about this we could read? Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve It is well-established that parrot flocks have no leaders by every major study of wild flocks, and even in the observation of feral flocks in California. BY extention a "leaderless society" demonstates that no "pecking order" or domination is part of the parrots social equation. "Heighth-dominance" is a theory that is really a misunderstanding – a bird that is being aggressive when he is higher than you is not attempting to gain a "political edge" or dominate you – he is merely protecting his underside and lower body  from attack (this is instinctual). It is entirely a DEFENSIVE behavior. This behavior can modified through training. A true dominance drive probably could not be modified. Being a "flock animal" does not translate to being a "pack animal". A few writers, completely unfamiliar with parrot behavior started promoting the "dominance" idea back in the 70s, and despite our greater understanding of parrot behavior today, uninformed authors just keep repeating what was written then (because most have no real experience with parrots beyond owning a bird or two, and repeating cliches) This kind of "research" has also propagated such goof ball concepts as "hormonal" behavior and "bonding"….it sounds good, but no observational or empirical data exists to back-up the concepts) I get most of my "theories" from 30 years of working with parrots in the wild, training and presenting parrot shows, and working with most of the true parrot experts in the business (not the Blanchards and other "pet parrot behaviorists" that have done so much to cloud the facts about parrot behavior) Most of the stuff I know from experience does conflict with "pet pop culture", which is no real surprise…most of the information available to the average pet owner originated many years ago, and has never been updated in the magazines and books that are available via the pet industry and pet magazines…. Doug / DC

Response:

I have an excellent artice by Steve Martin, in which he clearly explains why the whole "dominance" thing is a crook….I can’t explain it as well as he did. I, being a retard, don’t have the skills to forward the link here — but I will have Linda post it to this thread when she gets home later tonight. (she is soooo much smarter than me LOL !) Doug

Response:

http://www.realmacaw.com/pages/pbdom.html Doug

Response:

Replying to DC and the article he sent in by Steve Martin. Mr Martin is the first one to admit has he has written, that when a parrot or parrots are removed from the wild or are born in captivity a form of hierarchy appears which makes the birds feel confident. The birds that are born in captivity are very rarely socialised correctly and therefore do not know exactly where they stand in this new flock. Irrelevant of what anyone says about parrots in the wild or people latching on to old sayings because it’s easier and they have little experience on the subject. My experience of over 20 years study, rescuing over 1500 captive parrots over the past 7 years and the fact that I care for over 250 permanent residents at my home proves to me that there is a certain link between height and dominance. Its very easy to argue the point when all you handle is captive bred babies that are trained from birth and set to a routine, which is very good and should be taken more seriously by the parrot owning public as this would make their lives easier in bringing up parrots. However when these undomesticated creatures ascertain normality (adulthood), usually around the age of 4 (this is getting younger as time goes by) territory and hormones come into the question and this is when the first signs of dominance arrive. Although it only initially starts off as attitude, parrots are very good at noticing change in human confidence levels -eye contact and pupil dilation-and just as they know to say ‘Hello’ when the telephone rings or ‘bye bye’ when you put your coat on. So they also know to lunge at you if they feel threatened or at risk of being put away. This all brings on dominance and is all brought about by height, so although they may not be born with height dominance and they may not display these qualities in their natural habitat, as parrots adjust to human environment so dominance becomes a part. We cannot just discount these theories, they need to be addressed Steve Nichols www.parrotline.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Replying to DC and the article he sent in by Steve Martin. Mr Martin is the first one to admit has he has written, that when a parrot or parrots are removed from the wild or are born in captivity a form of hierarchy appears which makes the birds feel confident. The birds that are born in captivity are very rarely socialised correctly and therefore do not know exactly where they stand in this new flock. Irrelevant of what anyone says about parrots in the wild or people latching on to old sayings because it’s easier and they have little experience on the subject. My experience of over 20 years study, rescuing over 1500 captive parrots over the past 7 years and the fact that I care for over 250 permanent residents at my home proves to me that there is a certain link between height and dominance. Its very easy to argue the point when all you handle is captive bred babies that are trained from birth and set to a routine, which is very good and should be taken more seriously by the parrot owning public as this would make their lives easier in bringing up parrots. However when these undomesticated creatures ascertain normality (adulthood), usually around the age of 4 (this is getting younger as time goes by) territory and hormones come into the question and this is when the first signs of dominance arrive. Although it only initially starts off as attitude, parrots are very good at noticing change in human confidence levels -eye contact and pupil dilation-and just as they know to say ‘Hello’ when the telephone rings or ‘bye bye’ when you put your coat on. So they also know to lunge at you if they feel threatened or at risk of being put away. This all brings on dominance and is all brought about by height, so although they may not be born with height dominance and they may not display these qualities in their natural habitat, as parrots adjust to human environment so dominance becomes a part. We cannot just discount these theories, they need to be addressed Steve Nichols www.parrotline.org

Most of us can ignore the theories and enjoy just being with our birds. — Lou Boyd

Response:

Replying to: Steve Nichols www.parrotline.org

DOMINATION BEHAVIOR IN PARROTS: TRUE OR FALSE? http://www.nd.edu/~kkiessel/dominance.html Regards

Response:

LOL, I like that one, sounds good. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cannot just discount these theories, they need to be addressed Steve Nichols Most of us can ignore the theories and enjoy just being with our birds. — Lou Boyd

Response:

Steve If my experience had just been with domestic, hand-raised babies, I would be just as deluded about dominance issues as most parrot owners – however , I have worked with more wild-caught parrots than most people will see in a lifetime – and personally hand-tamed over 800 CAGs, and at least a simiar number of other assorted species. I have cared for, and supervised care of TENs of thousands of imports in the huge import facilities that existed prior to 1992. And I have spent a fair amount of time in the jungles of South and Central America in the last 30 years – so my opinion is based on more than a few cockatiels… In the rescue world, it is likely that you are dealing with "problem birds" that were given up because the owners could not manage them – I would say that you are observing behavior that has been severely-altered by mishandling and even abuse. Considering the dubious mental state of "rescuers" in general, it is also more likely that they would percieve themselves (and by extension , other parrots) as "victims of domination" (and everything and everyone else). It is no surprise that you buy into a dominance scenario. Anyhow, keep up the good work in caring for birds that need help…providing a good home, and removing these birds from bad situations is more important than understanding their nature – Dcug

Response:

Question:

"Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem? thanks. e.michael brandt

Response:

"Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem? thanks. e.michael brandt

Hemlock trees (the conifers) were named supposedly because Europeans thought their lacey foliage resmebled that of the poisonous herbs (Water Hemlock and Poison Hemlock, both members of the carrot family).  Hemlock trees are not poisonous.   Kelly Cassidy (that PhD in botany is sometimes usefull)  and Hemlock and Cedar, my 2 standard poodles — Kelly Cassidy Washington Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit Mail Stop WH-10 University of Washington, Seattle

Response:

"Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem?

It might.  That’s how Socrates was killed.  He told the truth and was ordered to drink a hemlock solution. Remove the  ’-’   from orion-data for sending email to me. Orion Data Systems Solicitations to me must be pre-approved in writing by me after soliciitor pays $1,000 US per incident. Solicitations sent to me are proof you accept this notice and will send a certified check forthwith.

Response:

"Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem? It might.  That’s how Socrates was killed.  He told the truth and was ordered to drink a hemlock solution.

Or might not, before there was a post that said that there is a difference between   hemlock    and   hemlock tree. The tree is not poisonous, only make sure the tree does not fall on the puppy if it nibbles too much.

Response:

says… "Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem?

Cicuta (spotted water hemlock) and Conium maculatum (Poison Hemlock) are both highly toxic. Signs of intoxication:         Cicuta                 15-30 minutes after ingestion                 excessive salivation                 intermittent tremors                 violent convulsions                 mydriasis (pupil dilation)                 paralysis and respiratory failure         Conium                 Signs appear <1 hour after ingestion                 nervousness                 mydriasis                 bradycardia (slow heart rate)                 hypothermia                 coma Treatment — unknown….. symptomatic… — Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital http://www.cport.com/~obvc/ | PLEASE NOTE: In the absence of a traditional veterinarian-client-patient relationship, this information should be taken as a friendly opinion, not as an official clinical recommendation.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem? It might.  That’s how Socrates was killed.  He told the truth and was ordered to drink a hemlock solution. Or might not, before there was a post that said that there is a difference between   hemlock    and   hemlock tree. The tree is not poisonous, only make sure the tree does not fall on the puppy if it nibbles too much.

Thank you all for your thoughts.  I can report the Liza (age 12 weeks) has nibbled on an occasional hemlock branch – the needles –  with no apparent effect.   One of the respondents kindly sent me an authoritative list of poisonous plants, noting that it might be the seed or root or adult plant that is the problem.  The list includes oak acorns, which another respondent said her dog eats happily!  I would have to raze my yard and the neighborhood greenspace to satisfy the recommendations of that list. Does anyone have a really useful list with empiric rather than theoretical info??  I think we would all be grateful for it. Oliver Brandt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Hemlock" was used in ancient times as a poison.  My puppy seems to like nibbling on our hemlock trees.  Is this a problem? It might.  That’s how Socrates was killed.  He told the truth and was ordered to drink a hemlock solution. Or might not, before there was a post that said that there is a difference between   hemlock    and   hemlock tree. The tree is not poisonous, only make sure the tree does not fall on the puppy if it nibbles too much. Thank you all for your thoughts.  I can report the Liza (age 12 weeks) has nibbled on an occasional hemlock branch – the needles –  with no apparent effect. One of the respondents kindly sent me an authoritative list of poisonous plants, noting that it might be the seed or root or adult plant that is the problem.  The list includes oak acorns, which another respondent said her dog eats happily!  I would have to raze my yard and the neighborhood greenspace to satisfy the recommendations of that list. Does anyone have a really useful list with empiric rather than theoretical info??  I think we would all be grateful for it. Oliver Brandt

Well Oliver, if you’re going to listen to Rene, a regular abuser of dogs who holds the dog in the air by it’s leg over OBVC, who has real knowledge of dog health, then you and your poor dog are on your own.You may have gotten lucky this time, but one of these days your poor dog’s luck   will run out. If you want theoretical info, you happen to be using the most powerful tool in the world right now. Do an engine search for yourself, or go to the library or book store. Terri

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

     JAGUAR: Detoxification can help you cope with life’s problems better than any therapist. Truth indeed IS stranger than any fiction.

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Yeah, you got off Prozac but you DID take Nardil

That’s correct, after 12 years straight of headaches, Nardil was the only thing that did work. I also gave myself shots of DHE45 for migraines. As I have told you BEFORE, Diamaond Headache Clinic gives anti-depressants for headaches. Any kind of chronic pain brings depression. There’s no shame in taking an anti-depressant if needed. and are currently taking Elavil (another antidepressant) for your problems

 I also take Neurontin for PN. Check with any doctor, you’ll find this is what is given for PN. Of course your doctors told you that they were giving you those meds for a different reason because if they told you that they were giving it to you for depression, then you would not take them IMO.

Well as usual your opinion sucks. Your point seems to be that I am depressed and miserable. Nothing could be further from the truth. <snip rest of Rich’s usual badgering Jan

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I keep seeing this little line used with reference to orthodox medicine.

And well you should. ALL people should be concerned,,,,,,,,,,,and DO something about it. Makes me wonder if those who die whilst receiving any other treatment might be classified as "necessary deaths"? Just a thought, Regards, Andrew "wishes Great Aunt Mildred would go and haunt someone else" Austin.

Sorry you feel that way. It’s going to take an outcry from the public to help with this problem. I don’t know about you, but needless deaths (caused by simple mistakes that could be corrected) does indeed bother me. Evidently you think it’s all a big joke. Very sad. Jan

Response:

I keep seeing this little line used with reference to orthodox medicine. Makes me wonder if those who die whilst receiving any other treatment might be classified as "necessary deaths"? Just a thought, Regards, Andrew "wishes Great Aunt Mildred would go and haunt someone else" Austin.

Response:

anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. There are profoundly mentally ill people.

sure, but this has been in effect long before any psych fields came about. psych fields didn’t play a part in creating mental illnesses. or did they? <G  Mental illness can be caused by physical defects in the brain and changes in brain chemistry.

it can be. it might be. it might not be.  no one knows *for certain* about what causes any particular ‘mental illlness’ yet, correct? There are psychoactive substances which are proved to relieve some types of mental illness.

this is definitively proven with which illnesses and which drugs? and is placebo ruled out?  Is this what you mean? erf

i meant exactly what i asked: are there ANY theory-free FACTs in the psych fields. btw, were you telling me or asking me? <G does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

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research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. Yes, research failed. On to bigger and better drugs. No thank you. Find a good alternative practitioner who can help you WITHOUT drugs.

At what did research fail? Research doesn’t say: ‘we have now developed a drug that does its job better than the previous drug, we’re done’. Research seeks to improve. As newer and better theories are developed, newer and better drugs are developed from those theories. It’s never over, psychiatric pathology is not yet well understood, so research is continuing. Some patients can and are helped without drugs, other need to take drugs to overcome or learn to live with their illness. Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward That’s exactly what was said when Prozac first came out. It was the big and I certainly didn’t like the effects. Thank God I had enough sense to get off of it.

I never said, nor intented to say, that prozac or any other drug is a ‘wonder’ drug or the answer to all our problems. Every drug has its advantages and disadvantages. The fact that prozac didn’t work for you doesn’t mean it wont work for anyone. And it also doesn’t mean that there wouldn’t be a drug around that could help you if you need it. There are more drugs available for many pathologies, so patients have a choice. Doesn’t mean that every patient can be helped but that’s because the work is not yet completely done. It’ll never be really done. Newer and better drugs will be developed and these newer and better drugs will by no means be perfect. Nobody should claim that they are. No therapy is going to be the answer for all patients alike. Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being

You either didn’t read the post well or you didn’t understand me. I never said ‘find the right pill, first and foremost’. I just said that depressions and such are serious pathologies and some patients are greately helped by psychopharmacology. And some are not. Andeh..how many recorded cases of prozac overdosing are there? And what of the newer neuroleptics (drugs used to help in psychotic and schizophrenic patients)? Some of them can be taken in doses 100 times the therapeutic dose and are still not lethal. And how many deaths will there be if depressed patients go untreated? Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

– Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

Response:

anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry.

There are profoundly mentally ill people.  Mental illness can be caused by physical defects in the brain and changes in brain chemistry.  There are psychoactive substances which are proved to relieve some types of mental illness.  Is this what you mean? erf

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science. well, the *ultimate goal* of ’science’ is to establish some theory-free factual information that can be replicated and relied upon, right? and until this goal is met, things simply remain theoretical—unproven—not scientifically vindicated—whatever you want to call it.

concede; however, my understanding of the social and psyche sciences is that the data are being gathered, correlated, and studied (and have been for decades) in as much of a scientific method as can be performed given that we are dealing with humans with free will and intellect and varying cultural norms. Molecules and atoms and black holes are much easier to study as they are consistent with natural law – at least moreso than most people I know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful. yes, i was using the word ’science’ with this ’scientific’ adjective definition in mind. just because i post that something is not scientific does not mean that i am saying it doesn’t have some merit. ie, i have stated many times that i am quite happy that many folks feel that acupuncture has helped them. but this doesn’t change the fact that acupuncture, as we know it today, is not ’scientifically proven’.

That’s fair. After all, doctors of medicine are only practicing at medical science. I would, however, give credence to acupuncture for a couple of reasons. First, it’s supposedly many thousands of years old and something doesn’t usually last that long if it has no merit whatsoever. Something good MUST be happening for people to allow somebody to stick sharp little needles in them. I tend to avoid needles whenever possible, so I will never have acupuncture. Secondly, insurance companies, HMOs even, pay for acupuncture treatments, so the benefit must be more cost-effective than known medical remedies or treatments otherwise available. I’ve done no research here. This is just casual information accumulated over my many years on this planet and my own opinions. neither is MOST, if not all, of psychology/psychiatry. it’s all a big guessing game. sure, i reckon there are some honest and empathetic sorts who are in the pscyh fields with truly noble intentions. but i bet, in this day and age of gotta-have-a-therapist fads, there are quite a few who are in it mainly for the money. the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm?

I don’t bother to go to quackwatch. When there is a seemingly medical issue in my circle of family and friends, I try to gain all the knowledge I can from medical journals, textbooks, articles, and specialists. I trust my intuition, and want to know what each treatment is intended to do and how well it has worked for others before commiting or giving my opinions to others. I read a lot, and have had several excellent books recommended to me as general research by my chiropractor on the subjects of nutrition, stress-management, brain functionality, and special diets designed to alleviate various health issues or just maintain balanced health. If one reads enough, or looks deeply enough, one should be able to arrive at health decisions that are compatible with their lifestyle. But I’ll never recommend to my friend on Prozac that she flush those pills down the toilet and start eating 3-4 potatoes every day. Everyone needs to use reason and deductive logic when dealing with their own health. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone. i didn’t. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption. certainly. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator. why do i have to be doing either? my impression of your response was that you had someone specific in mind. (not necesarily me, since i have never referred to psychology as bunk. i have simply reiterated (and correctly so, imho) that it is NOT scientific (by the standards of scientific proof used in all other western health/medical arenas)

You don’t have to be either. You could well be someone with strong opinions on some things that you feel are important to you. Which is most likely the case. I had no one specific in mind. I do think that the social and psyche sciences are in fact sciences but they are more complex because, unlike a cadaver, the thinking mind cannot be dissected, only the brain. Though the brain manages the interractions of the bodily systems (i.e., brain tells lungs to breathe, heart to pump blood, etc.), it is the thinking mind that interprets external stimulii and, appropriately or not, fires neurons to create emotiional reactions involving the bodies interfacing internal systems (adrenals, pancreas, pupil dilation, redirection of blood flow, etc.). if you feel differently, please feel free to present your opinion on just how scientific you think psychology/psychiatry is.

I think I already answered this here. It does seem to have fairly reproducible results in standardized situations. Because we are dealing with humans instead of viruses, there is a bit  more trial and error than say, treating bronchitis. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way. of course it doesn’t. and when you think about it, neither does whether you had someone specific in mind or not. imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real

world. some of it matters to me. I have learned some very interesting things in the posts here in the time I have been keeping up. A lot of the stuff seems to be rehashes of old differences of opinions by what I assume to be long-time (or much longer than me, anyway) readers/participants. But I am learning here. And that is what matters to me. Also, occasionally I can share some information or share a joke or acknowledge another’s effort to help. unless, of course, you are getting sued by some cranky, irate sort who DOES indeed take things personally—or stalked by some fruitcake like peterb’s troll.

don’t know peter b’s troll. might be able to guess. Not currently being sued, but I do know some cranky, irate sorts who take things pretty personally. If you’d like, I can pass them over to you.  If you are the designated centralized defendant for this group, I can give you a list of potential plaintiffs – or I could give them your name…. As for the stalking thing – I KNEW there was a reason why we can’t get rid of those darned Christmas fruitcakes. So they grow legs and run around stalking people, eh? I’ll bet they’re just like wire hangers –  if you put them in a dark closet, they multiply! (Scientifically proven, by the way, in all the closets in the house where I grew up.) By the way, did you know that it is the wire hangers that steal one sock of a pair? They use them to line the bassinets of the baby hangers until they can grow up and reproduce on their own. ; ) Thanks for the well-thought out responses and the humor. I appreciate it. ccc does acupuncture really work?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm?

<snip imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real world.

Oh I disagreee with that. Many people in the real world with real health problems have e-mailed me for more information about my regained health. Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science.

well, the *ultimate goal* of ’science’ is to establish some theory-free factual information that can be replicated and relied upon, right? and until this goal is met, things simply remain theoretical—unproven—not scientifically vindicated—whatever you want to call it. To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful.

yes, i was using the word ’science’ with this ’scientific’ adjective definition in mind. just because i post that something is not scientific does not mean that i am saying it doesn’t have some merit. ie, i have stated many times that i am quite happy that many folks feel that acupuncture has helped them. but this doesn’t change the fact that acupuncture, as we know it today, is not ’scientifically proven’. neither is MOST, if not all, of psychology/psychiatry. it’s all a big guessing game. sure, i reckon there are some honest and empathetic sorts who are in the pscyh fields with truly noble intentions. but i bet, in this day and age of gotta-have-a-therapist fads, there are quite a few who are in it mainly for the money. the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone.

i didn’t. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption.

certainly. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator.

why do i have to be doing either? my impression of your response was that you had someone specific in mind. (not necesarily me, since i have never referred to psychology as bunk. i have simply reiterated (and correctly so, imho) that it is NOT scientific (by the standards of scientific proof used in all other western health/medical arenas) if you feel differently, please feel free to present your opinion on just how scientific you think psychology/psychiatry is. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way.

of course it doesn’t. and when you think about it, neither does whether you had someone specific in mind or not. imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real world. unless, of course, you are getting sued by some cranky, irate sort who DOES indeed take things personally—or stalked by some fruitcake like peterb’s troll. does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Hi Carole, Not taking into account chemical or physical reasons for depression, just emotional reasons. Depression is not something that you can say hey snap out of it, or hey do something, or get a life or whatever, it’s a serious issue and one that needs help and respect, also to treat the sufferer with TLC and be supportive. It’s usually when people hit rock bottom that they start to pick themselves up, or when they find something that motivates them, not when told to do so. What about phobias? some forms of depression can have similar triggers. Drugs are not the answer for many, yet for some it may be of benefit in the short term although I prefer natural forms of antidepressants if it’s absolutely necessary. When the sufferer is ready for a way out then the person will seek help and there are many therapies that can be of benefit. Sometimes it’s just time that is needed. I must say though that little help will be gained until the person is ready for it and no amount of lecturing or prodding will help, rather it will hinder the recovery process. While there are many products both natural and chemical that will help with the symptoms they will  not cure the problem and neither will telling them to get a life or to get over it. This also applies in a smaller degree to other forms of depression, yet there still remains a need to find the cause and work on it rather than the symptoms. Steven

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry.

From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science. To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful. and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil.

From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way. does acupuncture really work?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Moses here: I agree with David Wright on this one. Though I’d add that there are some useful alt remedies for anxiety and depression. Various herbs (St. John’s Wort and Valerian) and inositol to mention a few. Cell salts in homeopathic doses are a sad sick joke.

Like I’ve said before, I take most of my cell salts in milligram doses – particularly calcium, potassium and sodium phosphate and sulphate = 8 of 12 in milligram tablets.  Therefore only 4 in homeopathic form. The criteria for taking the cell salts in homeopathic or milligram form is if they work to alleviate symptoms and yes, they appear to work either way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever)

it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. and that all meds should be herbal,

who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post.

his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

jan, i didn’t think that robert’s post was ‘jargon’ at all. it was an excellent reply to carol’s rather lame attempt to classify mental problems as ‘having a bad day’ or ‘making poor choices’ or whatever that was. i certainly agree that, recently, psychopharms have been over-prescribed much of the time,  and alternative therapies should play a larger role. (there was an interesting article about ‘winter depression’ and ‘light therapy’…..i forget where i saw that, i suppose there is info online about this.) the fact is, robert is correct when he says that many mental problems (if not all of them) have physiological roots, and as such, *sometimes* can and should be treated with drugs. keep in mind, jan, that herbs are drugs too. (just not man-made ones) this is a new science and it will be beneficial once they get the kinks worked out. just think of the progress that can and will be made for neurological illnesses like alzheimers!!! does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Moses here: I agree with David Wright on this one. Though I’d add that there are some useful alt remedies for anxiety and depression. Various herbs (St. John’s Wort and Valerian) and inositol to mention a few. Cell salts in homeopathic doses are a sad sick joke.

Response:

Robert, This is an excellent treatise. Well thought out and certainly addressing the need for treatment of severe depression rather than just getting frustrated or being a bit down. You clearly have done your homework. I do agree that drugs should not be used unless in conjunction with therapy. If one is ill enough to require drugs, then one is also ill enough to require assistance in determining causation and potential life remedies. I have also found that not every drug is appropriate for every patient, which is why attempts have been made to make so many available. In my experience, there is a great amount of subtlety in determining which drug will be appropriate for a patient because you can’t just stick a probe into the brain and measure which chemical is under or over used (lay terms, I’m not a doctor) or which combination is not functioning appropriately to allow the brain to balance and the patient to live a relatively normal life. I have seen patients become worse on one drug and respond well to another. Unfortunately, in early treatment the drug decision and dosage need to be monitored very closely. There is no one cure-all, because there is no one cause, as you have pointed out clearly. Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) and that all meds should be herbal, please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. Connie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. ok…so now people who suffer from depression are to blame for their own depressions? Serotonin has nothing to do with it? Some people have anxiety disorders and depressions due to trauma they suffered. Others because of severe biochemical changes in their bodies, think of post-partum depressions and women going through the change. Depressions and other psychological pathologies have a wide array of causes. In some cases the cause may even be purely biochemical. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. You probably never went through a major depression yourself nor been close to someone who has. Depressions can immobilitating and decapacitating just like other severe pathologies. Depression is not having an off-day, or finding it hard to cope. Depressions, bi-polar disorders and many associated illnesses can be life-threatning pathologies that need good management. In some cases, some form of professional psycho-therapy can stand alone in treatment. In other cases it is necesary to complement the therapy with drugs like anxiolytics and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Not insteat of therapy, but together with therapy. Depressions are poorly understood, but research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. In many cases therapy is about discussing strategies of getting your life back on track, in other cases therapy is needed to understand how and why certain things may have happened. Sometimes the disorder is so severe last resort therapies such as electro convulsion therapy and hospitalisation are called for. Not to amuse or humor either the doctor or the patient, but to treat a potentially life-threatning condition. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Depressed people do nothing but looking at their lifes and see all too well what is wrong with it. They see nothing but wrongness in their lifes. The difficulty is in taking steps to change it. It takes a lot of courage on the patients behalf to seek counseling. It takes a tremendous effort to be compliant with drug therapies. Some patients experience serious side effects before the drugs start to work, some experience side effects through out and some experience no side effects at all. There’s no telling who’ll react in what way to these drugs untill you try it. Many patients are afraid to take psycho-pharmaca because they have wrong notions about these drugs. Some patients need hospitalisation to get through a crisis. Only when the patient feels somewhat stable and able to deal with negative feelings can steps be undertaken to change your life. Some people cannot, realistically, get off psycho-pharmaca. Not because they are addicted, but because the condition they suffer from is chronic and using these drugs is their only half-chance to have a half normal life. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Read more about clinical depressions before you make such statements about how patients should live. Anyone can get depressed, get it? Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward, but much more research is needed before brain chemistry is well understood and pathologies can be selectively treated. The brain is a vastly complex organ and how the brain what it does, how all the elements of the brain work together to control the body and possibly (aspects of) the mind is no where near well understood. Science will get there, in time, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction Depends on whose imagination is coming up with what truth. — Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

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research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others.

Yes, research failed. On to bigger and better drugs. No thank you. Find a good alternative practitioner who can help you WITHOUT drugs. Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward

That’s exactly what was said when Prozac first came out. It was the big and I certainly didn’t like the effects. Thank God I had enough sense to get off of it. Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

Response:

Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions.

ok…so now people who suffer from depression are to blame for their own depressions? Serotonin has nothing to do with it? Some people have anxiety disorders and depressions due to trauma they suffered. Others because of severe biochemical changes in their bodies, think of post-partum depressions and women going through the change. Depressions and other psychological pathologies have a wide array of causes. In some cases the cause may even be purely biochemical. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs.

You probably never went through a major depression yourself nor been close to someone who has. Depressions can immobilitating and decapacitating just like other severe pathologies. Depression is not having an off-day, or finding it hard to cope. Depressions, bi-polar disorders and many associated illnesses can be life-threatning pathologies that need good management. In some cases, some form of professional psycho-therapy can stand alone in treatment. In other cases it is necesary to complement the therapy with drugs like anxiolytics and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Not insteat of therapy, but together with therapy. Depressions are poorly understood, but research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. In many cases therapy is about discussing strategies of getting your life back on track, in other cases therapy is needed to understand how and why certain things may have happened. Sometimes the disorder is so severe last resort therapies such as electro convulsion therapy and hospitalisation are called for. Not to amuse or humor either the doctor or the patient, but to treat a potentially life-threatning condition. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things.

Depressed people do nothing but looking at their lifes and see all too well what is wrong with it. They see nothing but wrongness in their lifes. The difficulty is in taking steps to change it. It takes a lot of courage on the patients behalf to seek counseling. It takes a tremendous effort to be compliant with drug therapies. Some patients experience serious side effects before the drugs start to work, some experience side effects through out and some experience no side effects at all. There’s no telling who’ll react in what way to these drugs untill you try it. Many patients are afraid to take psycho-pharmaca because they have wrong notions about these drugs. Some patients need hospitalisation to get through a crisis. Only when the patient feels somewhat stable and able to deal with negative feelings can steps be undertaken to change your life. Some people cannot, realistically, get off psycho-pharmaca. Not because they are addicted, but because the condition they suffer from is chronic and using these drugs is their only half-chance to have a half normal life. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings.

Read more about clinical depressions before you make such statements about how patients should live. Anyone can get depressed, get it? Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward, but much more research is needed before brain chemistry is well understood and pathologies can be selectively treated. The brain is a vastly complex organ and how the brain what it does, how all the elements of the brain work together to control the body and possibly (aspects of) the mind is no where near well understood. Science will get there, in time, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

Depends on whose imagination is coming up with what truth. — Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

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On a [little] more serious note: David:  (I should know the answer to this, but help me out—I forgot—-had I only been taking my cell salts!) Who said this:     "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."

As far as I can learn, it’s by Hal Abelson, professor of Computer Science at MIT.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

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Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

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Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings.

Gee, thanks, Carole, for your typically intolerant, ill-informed ravings. Severe clinical depression is not necessarily the result of bad life decisions or bad judgements.  It can just as easily be a brain chemistry problem, and your imbecile post is as useful as telling a type 1 diabetic to just improve his attitude and he’ll be just fine. How do you manage to cram all that ignorance into one skull?  You must have an unusually large head.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

A lot of stuff that doesn’t really matter deleted but additional stuff that doesn’t really matter included:

Being a logical type person I can only relate to certain topics and others just leave me scratching my head. Maybe all that head scratching led to your having such an open mind that your brain fell out:-)))

Gee, thanks, Carole, for your typically intolerant, ill-informed ravings. How do you manage to cram all that ignorance into one skull?  You must have an unusually large head. Holy Moly — alert the media!  Carole’s re-discovered the cure for everything, including conditions that don’t exist:   "Expectoration – slips back: Kali Sulph."?  Oh please!!! In other words, a thick hocker that slides back down is a specific medical condition requiring a specific treatment — as opposed to a hocker that you cough out?  Oh c’mon, that is lunacy.

Thanks, you guys, for the chuckles!  Too bad I ran out of cell salts which I now need because too much air has left my lungs and they don’t seem to be able to transit fully and that is causing toxins to build up in my liver which has caused little yellow holes to appear in my iris. On a [little] more serious note: David:  (I should know the answer to this, but help me out—I forgot—-had I only been taking my cell salts!) Who said this:     "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." Email me with the anwser if you’d rather not waste bandwidth in the newsgroup (like someone else we know.) Regards, Larry — Larry Bickford, OD Doctor of Optometry, Family Practice Eye Health and Vision Care The EyeCare Connection http://www.EyeCareContacts.com Please note: Addresses are munged using the .invalid protocol to reduce spam. Help fight spam! Report spam to SpamCop  http://www.spamcop.net

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Question:

Yeah, you got off Prozac but you DID take Nardil

That’s correct, after 12 years straight of headaches, Nardil was the only thing that did work. I also gave myself shots of DHE45 for migraines. As I have told you BEFORE, Diamaond Headache Clinic gives anti-depressants for headaches. Any kind of chronic pain brings depression. There’s no shame in taking an anti-depressant if needed. and are currently taking Elavil (another antidepressant) for your problems

 I also take Neurontin for PN. Check with any doctor, you’ll find this is what is given for PN. Of course your doctors told you that they were giving you those meds for a different reason because if they told you that they were giving it to you for depression, then you would not take them IMO.

Well as usual your opinion sucks. Your point seems to be that I am depressed and miserable. Nothing could be further from the truth. <snip rest of Rich’s usual badgering Jan

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I keep seeing this little line used with reference to orthodox medicine.

And well you should. ALL people should be concerned,,,,,,,,,,,and DO something about it. Makes me wonder if those who die whilst receiving any other treatment might be classified as "necessary deaths"? Just a thought, Regards, Andrew "wishes Great Aunt Mildred would go and haunt someone else" Austin.

Sorry you feel that way. It’s going to take an outcry from the public to help with this problem. I don’t know about you, but needless deaths (caused by simple mistakes that could be corrected) does indeed bother me. Evidently you think it’s all a big joke. Very sad. Jan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

     JAGUAR: Detoxification can help you cope with life’s problems better than any therapist. Truth indeed IS stranger than any fiction.

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anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry.

There are profoundly mentally ill people.  Mental illness can be caused by physical defects in the brain and changes in brain chemistry.  There are psychoactive substances which are proved to relieve some types of mental illness.  Is this what you mean? erf

Response:

I keep seeing this little line used with reference to orthodox medicine. Makes me wonder if those who die whilst receiving any other treatment might be classified as "necessary deaths"? Just a thought, Regards, Andrew "wishes Great Aunt Mildred would go and haunt someone else" Austin.

Response:

anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. There are profoundly mentally ill people.

sure, but this has been in effect long before any psych fields came about. psych fields didn’t play a part in creating mental illnesses. or did they? <G  Mental illness can be caused by physical defects in the brain and changes in brain chemistry.

it can be. it might be. it might not be.  no one knows *for certain* about what causes any particular ‘mental illlness’ yet, correct? There are psychoactive substances which are proved to relieve some types of mental illness.

this is definitively proven with which illnesses and which drugs? and is placebo ruled out?  Is this what you mean? erf

i meant exactly what i asked: are there ANY theory-free FACTs in the psych fields. btw, were you telling me or asking me? <G does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

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research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. Yes, research failed. On to bigger and better drugs. No thank you. Find a good alternative practitioner who can help you WITHOUT drugs.

At what did research fail? Research doesn’t say: ‘we have now developed a drug that does its job better than the previous drug, we’re done’. Research seeks to improve. As newer and better theories are developed, newer and better drugs are developed from those theories. It’s never over, psychiatric pathology is not yet well understood, so research is continuing. Some patients can and are helped without drugs, other need to take drugs to overcome or learn to live with their illness. Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward That’s exactly what was said when Prozac first came out. It was the big and I certainly didn’t like the effects. Thank God I had enough sense to get off of it.

I never said, nor intented to say, that prozac or any other drug is a ‘wonder’ drug or the answer to all our problems. Every drug has its advantages and disadvantages. The fact that prozac didn’t work for you doesn’t mean it wont work for anyone. And it also doesn’t mean that there wouldn’t be a drug around that could help you if you need it. There are more drugs available for many pathologies, so patients have a choice. Doesn’t mean that every patient can be helped but that’s because the work is not yet completely done. It’ll never be really done. Newer and better drugs will be developed and these newer and better drugs will by no means be perfect. Nobody should claim that they are. No therapy is going to be the answer for all patients alike. Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being

You either didn’t read the post well or you didn’t understand me. I never said ‘find the right pill, first and foremost’. I just said that depressions and such are serious pathologies and some patients are greately helped by psychopharmacology. And some are not. Andeh..how many recorded cases of prozac overdosing are there? And what of the newer neuroleptics (drugs used to help in psychotic and schizophrenic patients)? Some of them can be taken in doses 100 times the therapeutic dose and are still not lethal. And how many deaths will there be if depressed patients go untreated? Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

– Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science. well, the *ultimate goal* of ’science’ is to establish some theory-free factual information that can be replicated and relied upon, right? and until this goal is met, things simply remain theoretical—unproven—not scientifically vindicated—whatever you want to call it.

concede; however, my understanding of the social and psyche sciences is that the data are being gathered, correlated, and studied (and have been for decades) in as much of a scientific method as can be performed given that we are dealing with humans with free will and intellect and varying cultural norms. Molecules and atoms and black holes are much easier to study as they are consistent with natural law – at least moreso than most people I know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful. yes, i was using the word ’science’ with this ’scientific’ adjective definition in mind. just because i post that something is not scientific does not mean that i am saying it doesn’t have some merit. ie, i have stated many times that i am quite happy that many folks feel that acupuncture has helped them. but this doesn’t change the fact that acupuncture, as we know it today, is not ’scientifically proven’.

That’s fair. After all, doctors of medicine are only practicing at medical science. I would, however, give credence to acupuncture for a couple of reasons. First, it’s supposedly many thousands of years old and something doesn’t usually last that long if it has no merit whatsoever. Something good MUST be happening for people to allow somebody to stick sharp little needles in them. I tend to avoid needles whenever possible, so I will never have acupuncture. Secondly, insurance companies, HMOs even, pay for acupuncture treatments, so the benefit must be more cost-effective than known medical remedies or treatments otherwise available. I’ve done no research here. This is just casual information accumulated over my many years on this planet and my own opinions. neither is MOST, if not all, of psychology/psychiatry. it’s all a big guessing game. sure, i reckon there are some honest and empathetic sorts who are in the pscyh fields with truly noble intentions. but i bet, in this day and age of gotta-have-a-therapist fads, there are quite a few who are in it mainly for the money. the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm?

I don’t bother to go to quackwatch. When there is a seemingly medical issue in my circle of family and friends, I try to gain all the knowledge I can from medical journals, textbooks, articles, and specialists. I trust my intuition, and want to know what each treatment is intended to do and how well it has worked for others before commiting or giving my opinions to others. I read a lot, and have had several excellent books recommended to me as general research by my chiropractor on the subjects of nutrition, stress-management, brain functionality, and special diets designed to alleviate various health issues or just maintain balanced health. If one reads enough, or looks deeply enough, one should be able to arrive at health decisions that are compatible with their lifestyle. But I’ll never recommend to my friend on Prozac that she flush those pills down the toilet and start eating 3-4 potatoes every day. Everyone needs to use reason and deductive logic when dealing with their own health. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone. i didn’t. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption. certainly. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator. why do i have to be doing either? my impression of your response was that you had someone specific in mind. (not necesarily me, since i have never referred to psychology as bunk. i have simply reiterated (and correctly so, imho) that it is NOT scientific (by the standards of scientific proof used in all other western health/medical arenas)

You don’t have to be either. You could well be someone with strong opinions on some things that you feel are important to you. Which is most likely the case. I had no one specific in mind. I do think that the social and psyche sciences are in fact sciences but they are more complex because, unlike a cadaver, the thinking mind cannot be dissected, only the brain. Though the brain manages the interractions of the bodily systems (i.e., brain tells lungs to breathe, heart to pump blood, etc.), it is the thinking mind that interprets external stimulii and, appropriately or not, fires neurons to create emotiional reactions involving the bodies interfacing internal systems (adrenals, pancreas, pupil dilation, redirection of blood flow, etc.). if you feel differently, please feel free to present your opinion on just how scientific you think psychology/psychiatry is.

I think I already answered this here. It does seem to have fairly reproducible results in standardized situations. Because we are dealing with humans instead of viruses, there is a bit  more trial and error than say, treating bronchitis. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way. of course it doesn’t. and when you think about it, neither does whether you had someone specific in mind or not. imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real

world. some of it matters to me. I have learned some very interesting things in the posts here in the time I have been keeping up. A lot of the stuff seems to be rehashes of old differences of opinions by what I assume to be long-time (or much longer than me, anyway) readers/participants. But I am learning here. And that is what matters to me. Also, occasionally I can share some information or share a joke or acknowledge another’s effort to help. unless, of course, you are getting sued by some cranky, irate sort who DOES indeed take things personally—or stalked by some fruitcake like peterb’s troll.

don’t know peter b’s troll. might be able to guess. Not currently being sued, but I do know some cranky, irate sorts who take things pretty personally. If you’d like, I can pass them over to you.  If you are the designated centralized defendant for this group, I can give you a list of potential plaintiffs – or I could give them your name…. As for the stalking thing – I KNEW there was a reason why we can’t get rid of those darned Christmas fruitcakes. So they grow legs and run around stalking people, eh? I’ll bet they’re just like wire hangers –  if you put them in a dark closet, they multiply! (Scientifically proven, by the way, in all the closets in the house where I grew up.) By the way, did you know that it is the wire hangers that steal one sock of a pair? They use them to line the bassinets of the baby hangers until they can grow up and reproduce on their own. ; ) Thanks for the well-thought out responses and the humor. I appreciate it. ccc does acupuncture really work?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm?

<snip imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real world.

Oh I disagreee with that. Many people in the real world with real health problems have e-mailed me for more information about my regained health. Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science.

well, the *ultimate goal* of ’science’ is to establish some theory-free factual information that can be replicated and relied upon, right? and until this goal is met, things simply remain theoretical—unproven—not scientifically vindicated—whatever you want to call it. To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful.

yes, i was using the word ’science’ with this ’scientific’ adjective definition in mind. just because i post that something is not scientific does not mean that i am saying it doesn’t have some merit. ie, i have stated many times that i am quite happy that many folks feel that acupuncture has helped them. but this doesn’t change the fact that acupuncture, as we know it today, is not ’scientifically proven’. neither is MOST, if not all, of psychology/psychiatry. it’s all a big guessing game. sure, i reckon there are some honest and empathetic sorts who are in the pscyh fields with truly noble intentions. but i bet, in this day and age of gotta-have-a-therapist fads, there are quite a few who are in it mainly for the money. the psych fields are rife with quackery. but you won’t see that discussed on quackwatch, hmm? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone.

i didn’t. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption.

certainly. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator.

why do i have to be doing either? my impression of your response was that you had someone specific in mind. (not necesarily me, since i have never referred to psychology as bunk. i have simply reiterated (and correctly so, imho) that it is NOT scientific (by the standards of scientific proof used in all other western health/medical arenas) if you feel differently, please feel free to present your opinion on just how scientific you think psychology/psychiatry is. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way.

of course it doesn’t. and when you think about it, neither does whether you had someone specific in mind or not. imho, nothing that we talk about here on MHA really matters in the real world. unless, of course, you are getting sued by some cranky, irate sort who DOES indeed take things personally—or stalked by some fruitcake like peterb’s troll. does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Hi Carole, Not taking into account chemical or physical reasons for depression, just emotional reasons. Depression is not something that you can say hey snap out of it, or hey do something, or get a life or whatever, it’s a serious issue and one that needs help and respect, also to treat the sufferer with TLC and be supportive. It’s usually when people hit rock bottom that they start to pick themselves up, or when they find something that motivates them, not when told to do so. What about phobias? some forms of depression can have similar triggers. Drugs are not the answer for many, yet for some it may be of benefit in the short term although I prefer natural forms of antidepressants if it’s absolutely necessary. When the sufferer is ready for a way out then the person will seek help and there are many therapies that can be of benefit. Sometimes it’s just time that is needed. I must say though that little help will be gained until the person is ready for it and no amount of lecturing or prodding will help, rather it will hinder the recovery process. While there are many products both natural and chemical that will help with the symptoms they will  not cure the problem and neither will telling them to get a life or to get over it. This also applies in a smaller degree to other forms of depression, yet there still remains a need to find the cause and work on it rather than the symptoms. Steven

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry.

From ccc, Sorry, but theory-free facts are not the determination of whether or not something is a science. To get back to the basics: science- n. [<OFr. < L. < sciens, ppr. of scire, to know], 1. originally, knowledge. 2. systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation. 3. a branch of knowledge, especially one concerned with establishing and systematizing facts, principles, and methods: as, the science of music. 4. a) the systematized knowledge of nature. b) any branch of this. See natural science. 5. skill, technique, or ability: as, the science of boxing. scientific- adj. 1. of or dealing with science. 2. used in or for natural science. 3. based on, or using, the principles and methods of science: systematic and exact. 4. a) done according to methods gained by training and experience: as, scientific boxing. b) highly trained; skillful. and that all meds should be herbal, who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil.

From ccc, Please do not take my support of Robert’s post to be a personal attack on anyone. It certainly was never intended as such. I have simply noticed some very radical points of view and/or comments in these postings from time to time and anticipated Robert would get blasted from somewhere. Please excuse my assumption. I do wonder, however, if you actually take everything personally or if you are just an instigator. Not to say that instigating can’t be an interesting pasttime…. and it really doesn’t matter either way. does acupuncture really work?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

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Moses here: I agree with David Wright on this one. Though I’d add that there are some useful alt remedies for anxiety and depression. Various herbs (St. John’s Wort and Valerian) and inositol to mention a few. Cell salts in homeopathic doses are a sad sick joke.

Like I’ve said before, I take most of my cell salts in milligram doses – particularly calcium, potassium and sodium phosphate and sulphate = 8 of 12 in milligram tablets.  Therefore only 4 in homeopathic form. The criteria for taking the cell salts in homeopathic or milligram form is if they work to alleviate symptoms and yes, they appear to work either way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever)

it is not a science and there is little or not hard evidence of efficiacy. (if you want to use the term ‘bunk’, that’s your perogative.) anyone who disagrees is welcome to point out any theory-free FACTS that exist in the fields of either psychology or psychiatry. and that all meds should be herbal,

who here believes that all meds should be herbal? i certainly don’t know of anyone. please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post.

his post was indeed excellent; well-thought out and civil. does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

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Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings.

Gee, thanks, Carole, for your typically intolerant, ill-informed ravings. Severe clinical depression is not necessarily the result of bad life decisions or bad judgements.  It can just as easily be a brain chemistry problem, and your imbecile post is as useful as telling a type 1 diabetic to just improve his attitude and he’ll be just fine. How do you manage to cram all that ignorance into one skull?  You must have an unusually large head.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

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A lot of stuff that doesn’t really matter deleted but additional stuff that doesn’t really matter included:

Being a logical type person I can only relate to certain topics and others just leave me scratching my head. Maybe all that head scratching led to your having such an open mind that your brain fell out:-)))

Gee, thanks, Carole, for your typically intolerant, ill-informed ravings. How do you manage to cram all that ignorance into one skull?  You must have an unusually large head. Holy Moly — alert the media!  Carole’s re-discovered the cure for everything, including conditions that don’t exist:   "Expectoration – slips back: Kali Sulph."?  Oh please!!! In other words, a thick hocker that slides back down is a specific medical condition requiring a specific treatment — as opposed to a hocker that you cough out?  Oh c’mon, that is lunacy.

Thanks, you guys, for the chuckles!  Too bad I ran out of cell salts which I now need because too much air has left my lungs and they don’t seem to be able to transit fully and that is causing toxins to build up in my liver which has caused little yellow holes to appear in my iris. On a [little] more serious note: David:  (I should know the answer to this, but help me out—I forgot—-had I only been taking my cell salts!) Who said this:     "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." Email me with the anwser if you’d rather not waste bandwidth in the newsgroup (like someone else we know.) Regards, Larry — Larry Bickford, OD Doctor of Optometry, Family Practice Eye Health and Vision Care The EyeCare Connection http://www.EyeCareContacts.com Please note: Addresses are munged using the .invalid protocol to reduce spam. Help fight spam! Report spam to SpamCop  http://www.spamcop.net

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On a [little] more serious note: David:  (I should know the answer to this, but help me out—I forgot—-had I only been taking my cell salts!) Who said this:     "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders."

As far as I can learn, it’s by Hal Abelson, professor of Computer Science at MIT.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions.

ok…so now people who suffer from depression are to blame for their own depressions? Serotonin has nothing to do with it? Some people have anxiety disorders and depressions due to trauma they suffered. Others because of severe biochemical changes in their bodies, think of post-partum depressions and women going through the change. Depressions and other psychological pathologies have a wide array of causes. In some cases the cause may even be purely biochemical. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs.

You probably never went through a major depression yourself nor been close to someone who has. Depressions can immobilitating and decapacitating just like other severe pathologies. Depression is not having an off-day, or finding it hard to cope. Depressions, bi-polar disorders and many associated illnesses can be life-threatning pathologies that need good management. In some cases, some form of professional psycho-therapy can stand alone in treatment. In other cases it is necesary to complement the therapy with drugs like anxiolytics and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Not insteat of therapy, but together with therapy. Depressions are poorly understood, but research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. In many cases therapy is about discussing strategies of getting your life back on track, in other cases therapy is needed to understand how and why certain things may have happened. Sometimes the disorder is so severe last resort therapies such as electro convulsion therapy and hospitalisation are called for. Not to amuse or humor either the doctor or the patient, but to treat a potentially life-threatning condition. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things.

Depressed people do nothing but looking at their lifes and see all too well what is wrong with it. They see nothing but wrongness in their lifes. The difficulty is in taking steps to change it. It takes a lot of courage on the patients behalf to seek counseling. It takes a tremendous effort to be compliant with drug therapies. Some patients experience serious side effects before the drugs start to work, some experience side effects through out and some experience no side effects at all. There’s no telling who’ll react in what way to these drugs untill you try it. Many patients are afraid to take psycho-pharmaca because they have wrong notions about these drugs. Some patients need hospitalisation to get through a crisis. Only when the patient feels somewhat stable and able to deal with negative feelings can steps be undertaken to change your life. Some people cannot, realistically, get off psycho-pharmaca. Not because they are addicted, but because the condition they suffer from is chronic and using these drugs is their only half-chance to have a half normal life. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings.

Read more about clinical depressions before you make such statements about how patients should live. Anyone can get depressed, get it? Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward, but much more research is needed before brain chemistry is well understood and pathologies can be selectively treated. The brain is a vastly complex organ and how the brain what it does, how all the elements of the brain work together to control the body and possibly (aspects of) the mind is no where near well understood. Science will get there, in time, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction

Depends on whose imagination is coming up with what truth. — Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

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research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others.

Yes, research failed. On to bigger and better drugs. No thank you. Find a good alternative practitioner who can help you WITHOUT drugs. Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward

That’s exactly what was said when Prozac first came out. It was the big and I certainly didn’t like the effects. Thank God I had enough sense to get off of it. Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

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Stay away from drugs whenever possible. This post is what people are being However down the road we see how dangerous these drugs are, and many are being Jan <snip more jargon from those who believe drugs are the answer

jan, i didn’t think that robert’s post was ‘jargon’ at all. it was an excellent reply to carol’s rather lame attempt to classify mental problems as ‘having a bad day’ or ‘making poor choices’ or whatever that was. i certainly agree that, recently, psychopharms have been over-prescribed much of the time,  and alternative therapies should play a larger role. (there was an interesting article about ‘winter depression’ and ‘light therapy’…..i forget where i saw that, i suppose there is info online about this.) the fact is, robert is correct when he says that many mental problems (if not all of them) have physiological roots, and as such, *sometimes* can and should be treated with drugs. keep in mind, jan, that herbs are drugs too. (just not man-made ones) this is a new science and it will be beneficial once they get the kinks worked out. just think of the progress that can and will be made for neurological illnesses like alzheimers!!! does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Moses here: I agree with David Wright on this one. Though I’d add that there are some useful alt remedies for anxiety and depression. Various herbs (St. John’s Wort and Valerian) and inositol to mention a few. Cell salts in homeopathic doses are a sad sick joke.

Response:

Robert, This is an excellent treatise. Well thought out and certainly addressing the need for treatment of severe depression rather than just getting frustrated or being a bit down. You clearly have done your homework. I do agree that drugs should not be used unless in conjunction with therapy. If one is ill enough to require drugs, then one is also ill enough to require assistance in determining causation and potential life remedies. I have also found that not every drug is appropriate for every patient, which is why attempts have been made to make so many available. In my experience, there is a great amount of subtlety in determining which drug will be appropriate for a patient because you can’t just stick a probe into the brain and measure which chemical is under or over used (lay terms, I’m not a doctor) or which combination is not functioning appropriately to allow the brain to balance and the patient to live a relatively normal life. I have seen patients become worse on one drug and respond well to another. Unfortunately, in early treatment the drug decision and dosage need to be monitored very closely. There is no one cure-all, because there is no one cause, as you have pointed out clearly. Regardless of what hammering you may get from those in this newsgroup who claim psychotherapy is bunk (or whatever) and that all meds should be herbal, please know that there is at least one who understands the seriousness of the subject matter and treatment and agrees with your most recent post. Connie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety and depression are often the result of bad life decisions. ok…so now people who suffer from depression are to blame for their own depressions? Serotonin has nothing to do with it? Some people have anxiety disorders and depressions due to trauma they suffered. Others because of severe biochemical changes in their bodies, think of post-partum depressions and women going through the change. Depressions and other psychological pathologies have a wide array of causes. In some cases the cause may even be purely biochemical. I am sick to death of hearing people who have problems coping.  You never hear them discussing strategies for getting their lives back on track, just therapies and drugs. You probably never went through a major depression yourself nor been close to someone who has. Depressions can immobilitating and decapacitating just like other severe pathologies. Depression is not having an off-day, or finding it hard to cope. Depressions, bi-polar disorders and many associated illnesses can be life-threatning pathologies that need good management. In some cases, some form of professional psycho-therapy can stand alone in treatment. In other cases it is necesary to complement the therapy with drugs like anxiolytics and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Not insteat of therapy, but together with therapy. Depressions are poorly understood, but research has revealed interesting facts that led to the development of newer anti-depressants like prozac and others. In many cases therapy is about discussing strategies of getting your life back on track, in other cases therapy is needed to understand how and why certain things may have happened. Sometimes the disorder is so severe last resort therapies such as electro convulsion therapy and hospitalisation are called for. Not to amuse or humor either the doctor or the patient, but to treat a potentially life-threatning condition. Instead of taking drugs and anti-depressants try looking at your life and working out what is wrong with it. Then take some steps to change things. Depressed people do nothing but looking at their lifes and see all too well what is wrong with it. They see nothing but wrongness in their lifes. The difficulty is in taking steps to change it. It takes a lot of courage on the patients behalf to seek counseling. It takes a tremendous effort to be compliant with drug therapies. Some patients experience serious side effects before the drugs start to work, some experience side effects through out and some experience no side effects at all. There’s no telling who’ll react in what way to these drugs untill you try it. Many patients are afraid to take psycho-pharmaca because they have wrong notions about these drugs. Some patients need hospitalisation to get through a crisis. Only when the patient feels somewhat stable and able to deal with negative feelings can steps be undertaken to change your life. Some people cannot, realistically, get off psycho-pharmaca. Not because they are addicted, but because the condition they suffer from is chronic and using these drugs is their only half-chance to have a half normal life. Get it? Life strategies, plans, goals and action  – not drugs and therapies to cope with feelings. Read more about clinical depressions before you make such statements about how patients should live. Anyone can get depressed, get it? Psychopharmacology is a young science and progress in slow. The drugs that are developed in this field can be of great help to the patients. The older anti-depressants were sometimes truely dangerous drugs and many suicide attempts were made with the drugs that were meant to help the patient. The newer drugs are a good step forward, but much more research is needed before brain chemistry is well understood and pathologies can be selectively treated. The brain is a vastly complex organ and how the brain what it does, how all the elements of the brain work together to control the body and possibly (aspects of) the mind is no where near well understood. Science will get there, in time, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Carole — Truth is stranger than fiction Depends on whose imagination is coming up with what truth. — Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

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Question:

The best way to cross the border is to hike across it. Here in Washington State we have many opportunities for illegal< border crossings. For example, the start of the Pacific Crest Trail is in Manning Park in B.C.  The Boundary Trail in the Paysaten Wilderness parallels the border for some 50 miles. Coming across the border in a wilderness is rather weird. The two nations maintain a 20-foot swath of clearcut that marks the line. If you are up on a hill or the side of a mountain, you can see this line following the topology to the horizon. Very strange. But no customs officials to give you a hassle. — Tom Griffin, University of Washington – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -20 years of school and then they put ya on the day shift<<<<<

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.   I’ve lived close to the border nearly all my life, first in Michigan and now in upstate New York.  I’ve still got relatives in Michigan and go through Ontario to get there.  Most of my backcountry tripping is in Ontario or Quebec. Toronto or Ottawa are my favorite "big" cities, when I want culture or good food or interesting crowd watching.  So I’ve been crossing the border several times a year for 35 years, sometimes with canoes and backpacks, sometimes with small suitcases. I have *never* been searched, and never been questioned beyond the initial perfuntory questions about citizenship, guns, and alcohol.  I dimly remember being asked to open the trunk once, back in the distant past before we started buying station wagons.  During much of that time I’ve been overdue for a haircut and had a shaggy beard. — /Dave David E. Damouth Xerox Webster Research Center voice: 716-422-3186 fax: 716-265-7133

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.   I’ve lived close to the border nearly all my life, first in Michigan I want culture or good food or interesting crowd watching.  So I’ve been crossing the border several times a year for 35 years, sometimes with canoes and backpacks, sometimes with small suitcases. I have *never* been searched, and never been questioned beyond the initial perfuntory questions about citizenship, guns, and alcohol.  I dimly remember being asked to open the trunk once, back in the distant past before we started buying station wagons.  During much of that time I’ve been overdue for a haircut and had a shaggy beard. /Dave David E. Damouth Xerox Webster Research Center voice: 716-422-3186 fax: 716-265-7133

Hah! I bet you’ve never made the trip in an old VW bus with California plates. I’ve crossed the border 4 times in said vehicle and got searched every time! One of the four times the Canadians took out the seats looking for something. That was a little nervous because the previous owner left a whole bunch of little suprises (empty baggies with seeds and stems) that I was continually finding whenever I opened up a new part of the bus.  Fortunately, the border mounties didn’t find any. Matt Spitzer

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.  

Basically, it’s very similar to hijacker profiles at airports. They looks for certain behaviors in people, a particular kind of nervousness, lack of eye contact, attempts to hide things, a particular kind of attitude.  Of course asking how they do it is suspect.  In particular, they use the size of your iris to see if you are hiding something. Obviously it far from perfect. Grab the latest copy of panel 7 when it comes around again.  I just did four edits to it.   Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.           DELETIONS Hah! I bet you’ve never made the trip in an old VW bus with California plates. I’ve crossed the border 4 times in said vehicle and got searched every time! One of the four times the Canadians took out the seats looking for something. That was a little nervous because the previous owner left a whole bunch of little suprises (empty baggies with seeds and stems) that I was continually finding whenever I opened up a new part of the bus.  Fortunately, the border mounties didn’t find any. Matt Spitzer

Interesting that you say that.  I had a VW bus for 8 years (with Alberta plates) and had long hair, an earring, and a beard.  Got searched all the time in *many* cross-border trips.  Even got hassled once going *into* Mexico (!?).  The only time I made it into the U.S. problem-free was after having been refused entry at the Alberta/Montana border because I had "too little money."  Drove over to B.C. and crossed the border into Idaho.  Lied to the border guard – instead of telling him I was headed for Mexico (which I was), I said I was on vacation and going to do some high-country, late season ski touring in the mountains. "Where are your skis?" …. "I’m going to rent them in Boise, I do this every year." …. "Any snow left up there?" (it was late April)…. "Oh, yeah, lots when you get up high." …. "OK, young feller (I was at the time), have a good trip." Sheesh, you just never know…. Rae

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.  

so do I—- I got hassled crossing the border near Glacier Natl Park in Montana!!! and I was driving a brand new Nissan Pathfinder  (so I look young and am 25 so what!!) any guns??? any bullets???  any alcohol?? how much money do you have???  ok you have to go inside and fill out a form??   cheers! mike strong

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I realize this is off the backcountry topic but wanted to relay my cherished ru n-in with the border.  While on leave from the Navy (read: short hair, neatly g roomed) and out with an old friend (male) we realized we were low on fuel.  As it was late and all the service stations in NY appeared to have closed we appro ached the border and even asked where there was a station open.  After entering  Canada without trouble we fueled the car, drove around a bit and returned to t he same bridge. In retrospect this was asking for trouble (as follows).  We were both clean-cut , neatly dressed (had been to some of the better clubs), had not been drinking.   Question: citizen of (US). Question: How long in Canada (about an hour..shoud l have lied I suppose?).  Question: What did you purchase (gas). Bottom line:  we were pulled over, sent inside while they ran police checks on us, pulled the car into the garage only to find my friend didn’t have the trunk  key to his father’s car (TROUBLE!!!). We ended up tearing out the back seat so the guards could peer inside an empty trunk.  We drove away with our clothes ruined from the grease and realized that  we had basically set ourselves up for trouble.  Other times when I considered myself more suspicious (a truck full of camping, fishing gear etc, towing a ful l boat) they’ve waved us on a said have a nice trip.. Go figure.  Scott

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any guns??? any bullets???  any alcohol?? how much money do you have???  ok

you have to go inside and fill out a form??  

They asked my wife, "Any liquor?"  She said no, so they searched her car and found a bottle of wine.  "Are wine and beer considered liquor, I thought you meant stuff like vodka?" she said.  Well you can guess that she’s now a smuggler.  They took the wine (it was only Almaden). Gave a decent size ticket.  Now we are searched every time through. Coming back isn’t easier.  We had a great trip, backpacking up in BC. The US border guard told us that he’d never been to Canada, and he had no interest in going.  His attitude was smug and superior as he told us there was nothing up there, etc.  I was amazed. My wife’s uncle (in BC) said they split the continent in the wrong direction.  Canadian and US westerners have much more in common than the easterners who govern us.  The west is not a second/third world country, extracting and depleting it’s natural resources for the benefit of the first world.         – Shawn

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.   so do I—- I got hassled crossing the border near Glacier Natl Park in Montana!!!

Some searches are just random. The IRS does something like this, too (random audits).  When they find something juicy, they look back at appearances and see if they can use something to catch others in the future. — -Rob Strand

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My wife’s uncle (in BC) said they split the continent in the wrong direction.  Canadian and US westerners have much more in common than the easterners who govern us.  The west is not a second/third world country, extracting and depleting it’s natural resources for the benefit of the first world.

I have thought for many years that BC and the Pacific Northwest should each succeed from their respective unions and form a new country together. —

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My wife’s uncle (in BC) said they split the continent in the wrong direction.  Canadian and US westerners have much more in common than the easterners who govern us.  The west is not a second/third world country, extracting and depleting it’s natural resources for the benefit of the first world. I have thought for many years that BC and the Pacific Northwest should each succeed from their respective unions and form a new country together.

There are various groups who believe in this idea… The de facto name for what the area would be called appears to be Cascadia.  I read a really interesting article on this about a year ago in the Georgia Strait newspaper.  There are a number of political, economic and sociological arguments for this type of redefinition – interesting reading. Melanie. — Many years ago he looked out through a glassless window All that he could see was Babylon.  Beautiful green fields and dreams And learned to measure the stars, but there was a worry in his heart. Didn’t understand much what he saw.                           – World Party

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I’ve lots of droll little stories about crossing the Canadian/USA boarder … most of them deal with going into Canada. So the moral of the story is, keep your dirty laundry on top, and carry a big camera by your side.

Maybe carry a big camera, but I would refrain from making smart-ass remarks (or even mildly humourous ones) unless you are really good at making a snap judgment as to the guards mood.  Canadian or American. I used to live 6 miles from the border and crossed many times a year – the best bet is to just answer their questions as asked, giving explanation ONLY if requested.   The only times my vehicle was seriously searched was crossing with a car full of skiing yahoos when I was a teenager.  They (American guards in my case, they never care about you coming HOME from skiing) seem to check for drugs/alcohol.  (Even funnier than encountering dirty laundry was the guard who searched my bag and opened "suspicious-looking" little container that held TAMPONS!  I had to chuckle as he whips the thing out, stares me in the eye, pops it open, then hastily shoved back in.  It was too funny to see his face!!!!) If you can help it, try NOT to be funny or you may get delayed.  In a couple hundred crossings, I have only been searched 3-4 times.  We were refused entry once because a friend had a South African accent and didn’t have his papers proving he was ok to be here. Melanie. PS. In the fijian airport (big tin shack) they don’t have x-rays and search your luggage by hand – pity the poor people who have to sift thru all the backpackers icky clothes that after multple weeks of travel are considered clean if it has been washed at least once in the past few weeks of wear… — Many years ago he looked out through a glassless window All that he could see was Babylon.  Beautiful green fields and dreams And learned to measure the stars, but there was a worry in his heart. Didn’t understand much what he saw.                           – World Party

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Follow-ups to talk.politics.misc Never happen!  Can you imagine BC and WA trying to agree on common gun control laws?

That’s not really a problem: A "federal" government, such as both the United States and Canada have, gives the national government authority over some subjects and leaves everything else up to the States. If BC and WA can’t agree on gun control, they could still (in theory) be part of the same nation and just (in the form of a constitutional provision) agree to disagree.                                                   Frank Crary                                                   CU Boulder

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Profiling. It certainly is far from perfect!  Try the standard textbook for law enforcement – Inbau, Reid, & Buckley (1986), _Criminal Interrogation and Confessions_ for the scientifically unfounded techniques that are in common use.

It’s funny you mention this book. I just saw a copy of it for the first time back in March at the Computer, Freedom and Privacy Conference. See Paul Ekman’s _Telling Lies_ or any of his recent articles in psychological journals for the reality – FBI agents, judges, and police all failed to score better than chance (or college students) in a lie-detection test.  Only secret service agents did better than chance, and only barely.  Apparently, they were paying attention to facial expressions (_not_ pupil dilation) and vocal registers.  

Both of these are probably to be recommended to those interested in crossing borders.   Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

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I wish I understood just how customs officials decide who to hassle.   Basically, it’s very similar to hijacker profiles at airports. They looks for certain behaviors in people, a particular kind of nervousness, lack of eye contact, attempts to hide things, a particular kind of attitude.  Of course asking how they do it is suspect.  In particular, they use the size of your iris to see if you are hiding something. Obviously it far from perfect.

It certainly is far from perfect!  Try the standard textbook for law enforcement – Inbau, Reid, & Buckley (1986), _Criminal Interrogation and Confessions_ for the scientifically unfounded techniques that are in common use.  See Paul Ekman’s _Telling Lies_ or any of his recent articles in psychological journals for the reality – FBI agents, judges, and police all failed to score better than chance (or college students) in a lie-detection test.  Only secret service agents did better than chance, and only barely.  Apparently, they were paying attention to facial expressions (_not_ pupil dilation) and vocal registers.   My recollection of crossing the border near Toronto in a VW bus with a bunch of ragged-looking climbers about ten years ago: The guard asked each of us in turn, "Have you ever been arrested?" None of us had been.  Then he turned to the last of us, who looked rather more like a hippy than the rest of us, and said – "What were you arrested for?" An hour or so later, after all of our belongings had been thoroughly searched (no damage, fortunately), we were on our way. -John Rogers . r

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Never happen!  Can you imagine BC and WA trying to agree on common gun control laws? — /Dave David E. Damouth Xerox Webster Research Center voice: 716-422-3186 fax: 716-265-7133

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I have thought for many years that BC and the Pacific Northwest should each succeed from their respective unions and form a new country together. There are various groups who believe in this idea… The de facto name for what the area would be called appears to be Cascadia.

Read:         Ecotopia by Ernest Callenbach         Ecotopia Emerging by Ernest Callenbach   Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews   Scientific Programming   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Seeking Books to buy:   Bongard, Pattern Recognition                         3 down 1 to go.

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They asked my wife, "Any liquor?"  She said no, so they searched her car and found a bottle of wine.  "Are wine and beer considered liquor, I thought you meant stuff like vodka?" she said.  Well you can guess that she’s now a smuggler.  They took the wine (it was only Almaden). Gave a decent size ticket.  Now we are searched every time through.

Do you cross at the same place and they happen to remember you, or does a minor mistake like that get you on a watch list? My wife’s uncle (in BC) said they split the continent in the wrong direction.  Canadian and US westerners have much more in common than the easterners who govern us.

I agree. I suspect it’s a matter of population density and (relatively) recent settlement. I wounder how the Siberians would compare…                                                Frank Crary                                                CU Boulder

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My personal track record with border crossings suggests that the high-volume crossings are generally the most hassle-free.  I have, for example, never been searched at the Detroit-Windsor crossing.  I have been searched three or four times crossing at Sault-Saint-Marie.  Last summer I was interrogated (well, the agent took me into a room and asked me some questions) at the crossing north of Jackman, ME, really in the middle of nowhere, because I had a cardboard Vermont driver’s license without a picture, and perhaps because I was traveling with a Canadian citizen(as is well known, Canadians are disreputable and have criminal tendencies).  Kind of an odd interview: "What are you going to do in Quebec?" "We’re going to paddle the Jacques Cartier river and drive out   tomorrow." "How much money do you have?" "Oh, about $40" "But how will you manage with so little money?" "Look, we’re just going overnight, we’re going to camp out, and have   you ever heard of credit cards?" etcetera, etcetera. Interestingly, I have never been searched traveling alone, even with a car crammed full of stuff(maybe it seemed like too much work to the customs agent). Cars full of people(even with a bunch of skis on top) seem to attract attention. Kevin Geraghty

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I’ve lots of droll little stories about crossing the Canadian/USA boarder … most of them deal with going into Canada. Once we were heading into Vancouver from Seattle on a business trip. The conversation with the boarder guy went sort of like: BG: "Where you going?" US: "To Vancouver for a couple hours of business." BG: "Do you have any guns?" US: "No" BG: "Do you have any fruit?" US: "No" BG: "Do you have any guns?" US: "NO!" BG: "Do you have any drugs?" US: "No" BG: "Are any of your guns loaded?" (at this point I get the feeling they’re worried about guns) US: "No, we have no guns" So he tells up to pull in to the little building they have there and we have to stand in line for a half hour.  Then then come out and search the entire car.  Fortunately we are only packed for about a day, so we don’t have much to search.   The funniest thing I remember doing is them getting out the toothpaste and squeezing the tube.   I began to wonder if they might start ripping apart the car, which made me wonder what I’d tell the rental car company when we returned.   Finnally they let us go. The next time me and a friend were traveling up from Glacier NP to the Canadian side.  It worried us, because when we got to the crossing, we were the only ones around, and there were lots of guards siting around looking board like they needed something to do. Fortunately we had been traveling about a week, and had lots of dirty laundry in the trunk of the car, which we had strategicly placed on top.  So when the gaurd they assigned started searching the trunk, she stopped pretty quickly upon getting to the dirty clothes. The last story started out similar to the first. They started asking me over and over about guns. So I begain to think, "Oh no! here’s another long delay". So in semi-fustration I reach over to the seat next to me and hold up my big Canon T-90 35 mm camera with 200mm zoom lens and whatnot, and say something like, "Look!, this is what I do all my shooting with!".   At which point the guy says, "OK, go on."  Whew! So the moral of the story is, keep your dirty laundry on top, and carry a big camera by your side. NASA Ames Research Center #include <stddsclm.h                  

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Question:

How can you have ADD and not be anxious when put into situations where it will be a problem? If you cant think or concentrate or focus very well when someone is giving you directions, or youre in a new distracting surrounding, or youre trying to have a conversation and you cant think of what to say, how can anyone stay calm and relaxed? Not everyone with ADD has anxiety right? [[Kev]]

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How can you have ADD and not be anxious when put into situations where it will be a problem? If you cant think or concentrate or focus very well when someone is giving you directions, or youre in a new distracting surrounding, or youre trying to have a conversation and you cant think of what to say, how can anyone stay calm and relaxed? Not everyone with ADD has anxiety right? [[Kev]]

right and sometimes a primary anxiety disorder is misdiagnosed as ADHD.  Add to the mix the fact that partial complex seizures can be experienced as anxiety….. — The greatest weakness of most humans is their hesitancy to tell others how much they love them while they’re still alive.                          O. A. Battista                          Scientist and writer   http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

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right and sometimes a primary anxiety disorder is misdiagnosed as ADHD.  Add to the mix the fact that partial complex seizures can be experienced as anxiety…..

Oh, heck. I don’t think my anxiety liked the seizure idea… Seizure, is that the one with too much clotting? I’ve had a blood clot in a vein behind my eye(forgotten the term), and take 80mgs asperine per day… Trust me, anxiey does not combine well with an overactive imagination…! Vashti

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – right and sometimes a primary anxiety disorder is misdiagnosed as ADHD.  Add to the mix the fact that partial complex seizures can be experienced as anxiety….. Oh, heck. I don’t think my anxiety liked the seizure idea… Seizure, is that the one with too much clotting? I’ve had a blood clot in a vein behind my eye(forgotten the term), and take 80mgs asperine per day… Trust me, anxiey does not combine well with an overactive imagination…! Vashti

no seizures are electrical activity in the brain.  When the activity is cortical one experiences movements or sensations.  When the activity is closer to the limbic area of the brain you experience autonomic arousal, pupil dilation, weird feelings in the stomach, hperventilation, etc.–classic symptoms of anxiety. not that blood clots are good–they can lead to nasty things too. — The greatest weakness of most humans is their hesitancy to tell others how much they love them while they’re still alive.                          O. A. Battista                          Scientist and writer   http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm remove peterhood69 for mail

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no seizures are electrical activity in the brain.  When the activity is cortical one experiences movements or sensations.  When the activity is closer to the limbic area of the brain you experience autonomic arousal, pupil dilation, weird feelings in the stomach, hperventilation, etc.–classic symptoms of anxiety.

Oh, *good*. Haven’t got that….. not that blood clots are good–they can lead to nasty things too.

Anxiety, among other things…. <g ti

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How can you have ADD and not be anxious when put into situations where it will be a problem? If you cant think or concentrate or focus very well when someone is giving you directions, or youre in a new distracting surrounding, or youre trying to have a conversation and you cant think of what to say, how can anyone stay calm and relaxed? Not everyone with ADD has anxiety right?

You are asking two different questions here.  Yes, I get anxious in situations where I suspect my ADD is going to cause me difficulties. No, I do not have anxiety.

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How can you have ADD and not be anxious when put into situations where it will be a problem? If you cant think or concentrate or focus very well when someone is giving you directions, or youre in a new distracting surrounding, or youre trying to have a conversation and you cant think of what to say, how can anyone stay calm and relaxed? Not everyone with ADD has anxiety right? You are asking two different questions here.  Yes, I get anxious in situations where I suspect my ADD is going to cause me difficulties. No, I do not have anxiety.

I used to be much more anxious but as I have had so much emotional and mental growth this year, the anxiety has improved tremendously so I have to concur with Emma Anne. — Nessa I wanna talk about ME!! http://www.nessa.info

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I think there are several interwoven concepts here. 1. I am absolutely terrible with directions.  Just the other night made one wrong turn, and did not know where I was in a town I have lived in for 13 years. However, it is not the stress of getting directions that is a problems, just that I don’t take them sell.   I realize I don’t input that type of information well. 2. Conversations. Just ask people what they are interested in and you will always do well.  Check out Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How can you have ADD and not be anxious when put into situations where it will be a problem? If you cant think or concentrate or focus very well when someone is giving you directions, or youre in a new distracting surrounding, or youre trying to have a conversation and you cant think of what to say, how can anyone stay calm and relaxed? Not everyone with ADD has anxiety right? [[Kev]] right and sometimes a primary anxiety disorder is misdiagnosed as ADHD.  Add to the mix the fact that partial complex seizures can be experienced as anxiety….. — The greatest weakness of most humans is their hesitancy to tell others how much they love them while they’re still alive.                         O. A. Battista                         Scientist and writer   http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

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<<  However, it is not the stress of getting directions that is a problems, just that I don’t take them sell.   I realize I don’t input that type of information well.   So, in any rational person, this should cause some anxiety right? (Okay, maybe Im troll…hehe. I realize that Im trying to prove something that cannot be proved. You cant prove that anyone standing at the edge of the top of a 80 story building will feel fear, or anxiety. But wouldnt it be a reasonable response?) << 2. Conversations. Just ask people what they are interested in and you will always do well.  Check out Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.   Ive read it, twice… Well, it was the book on tape.  =)  And, its not that easy. If youre distracted and cant make associations or remember words for things or remember what you read in the book, just learning the types of things you should talk about only helps so much. [[Kev]]

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No.  I am acquainted with one who is not. His name is Wes Groleau. (Well, USUALLY not.) — Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

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