Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear Helen, Plese do not try herbalife, I have found it to be unhealthy.  I tried it some time back and almost died  –  it made me very sick.  It also made others sick in group of friends; we all were hypoglycemic.  It cantains sugar and other things you may not want. I am a homeopath and I am an intern in TCM (chinese Med).  I suggest you look for a different TCM practioner or Homeopath. May guess is he/she wanted you to change you diet or eating habits.  With your problems some of that will be nec, however each practioner deals with this differently.  I know most of us can not do drastic changes.  So my irst steps with a client would be to have them cut out processed food; such as canned food, foods with preservatives and fast foods.  This is a big step, I know.  If my clients can do this say half the week this is our first goal.  Then later we try for 90% of the time.  The other 10% you eat what you want.  Also we make changes in sugar intake and fats.  I would have a client use fruit juice to sweeten things when possible at first.  You can use it in muffins, breads, and in sauces over meat & fish dishes.  I would use a 100% fruit juice with no sugar added; and I would use less sauce than a normally would.  Drink you tea black or with 1/2 the honey as normal. You don’t say what you disagree with so I am only guessing as this is a problem area for most clients.  I hope you don’t give up on TCM or try homeopathy.  There must be others in your area if not I do work with people over the distance — with homeopathy. Feel free to contact me either way; I’m not fishing for business I have a local practice.  I spend my breaks looking at problems on the net and learning from them or working with them.  I can not give advice over the net that is why I simply say this is what I did for the same problem with myself; so I am simply sharing my experience.   You don’t say what are your symptoms etc. so what worked for me and what I might tell clients may work for you. Hope you’re doing better. Debra Novotny. CHt

Hi Debra – many thanks for your response.  As I said in my original posting – I haven’t used Herbalife just heard very good results – one from a doctor who is diabetic and is using the product with great success and is even reducing his insulin intake! However – in this instance I would have to bow to your personal experience regarding the product. Thanks for the info. Helen

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Hello. My name is Jennifer and I am new to this newsgroup. I need some guidance. I suffer from bi-polar depression and migraine headaches, joint pain, stomach trouble ..in other words im a mess at the age of 32. Is there any form of alternative medicine that could treat these? herbs? yoga? meditation? I saw a tv show once where a nurse used her hands..like a heat force on this mans boday and it helped him. please..if you can suggest something i would appreciate it. peace, jenn

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Jennifer, I just investigated a new (or new version, at least) product that has had success with depression and migraines as a by-product. It works on acupuncture principals w/o the puncture. It’s called the ReliefBand… it’s merely TENS unit in a writsband. It has worked for my partners wife. or call the rep,  Kathy Kappler,  R.N. 360/568-3509 or the corporate office at:  800-878-3877 Good Luck!

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You might want to start by looking at your diet.  Perhaps you can describe it in more detail. Dariusz : Hello. : My name is Jennifer and I am new to this newsgroup. : I need some guidance. : I suffer from bi-polar depression and migraine headaches, joint pain, : stomach trouble ..in other words im a mess at the age of 32. : Is there any form of alternative medicine that could treat these? : herbs? yoga? meditation? : I saw a tv show once where a nurse used her hands..like a heat force on : this mans boday and it helped him. : please..if you can suggest something i would appreciate it. : peace, : jenn

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Question:

= I think the point of insulin shock therapy was that it = produced convulsions analogous to those produced by = electroshock. = =I seem to recall reading that the development of the procedure was based on =the observation that diabetics were substantially under-represented as =scitzophrenics (suspect spelling), and that the above supposition was =called on to explain this.  I’m not a psychiatrist, but my impression is that =Electro Convulsive Therapy worked by the complete disruption of normal mental =processes, the convulsions were a symptom of that rather than the cause of =the apparent improvement in symptoms. Actually, I think the history of shock therapy et. al. went as follows:         1)  It was noticed that some schizophrenics improved after             naturally-occurring convulsions (e.g., from epilepsy)         2)  Somebody noticed that insulin overdoses induced convulsions, and             insulin shock therapy was invented in order to mimic the             convulsions noted at stage 1.         3)  The problems with insulin shock therapy were noted, other             chemical convulsants were investigated, and they pretty much             replaced insulin shock therapy         4)  It was discoverd that electroshock could be used to induce             convulsions, and it supplanted the chemical convulsants.         5)  Since electroshock’s effects were clearly the result of disruption             of neural activity, means to disrupt that activity in both a more             localized and more permant manner were investigated, which let to             lobotomies.         6)  Someone eventually noticed that, for the vast majority of patients,             these techniques had no measurable therapeutic effect, and all of             them had major drawbacks, and they fell into disrepute.

Response:

= I think the point of insulin shock therapy was that it = produced convulsions analogous to those produced by = electroshock.

Vice versa. There was correlation noted between epilepsy and certain mental illnesses, so people tried insulin shock as a controllable way to induce convulsions. Electricity replaced insulin as alternatives were tried to insulin because of the hazards of hypoglycemia. ECT, or Electro-Convulsive Therapy, has almost *no* side effects as performed today.  Its side effects are far less than anti-depressants, and far more short-term. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Actually, I think the history of shock therapy et. al. went as follows:    1)  It was noticed that some schizophrenics improved after        naturally-occurring convulsions (e.g., from epilepsy)    2)  Somebody noticed that insulin overdoses induced convulsions, and        insulin shock therapy was invented in order to mimic the        convulsions noted at stage 1.    3)  The problems with insulin shock therapy were noted, other        chemical convulsants were investigated, and they pretty much        replaced insulin shock therapy    4)  It was discoverd that electroshock could be used to induce        convulsions, and it supplanted the chemical convulsants.    5)  Since electroshock’s effects were clearly the result of disruption        of neural activity, means to disrupt that activity in both a more        localized and more permant manner were investigated, which let to        lobotomies.    6)  Someone eventually noticed that, for the vast majority of patients,        these techniques had no measurable therapeutic effect, and all of        them had major drawbacks, and they fell into disrepute.

I don’t know lobotomy’s evolution, but ECT became over-used and disreputable, because they used it for *everything*, and it was easy to prescribe as punishment on psych wards. It is still the most effective treatment for mono-polar depression: depression without the manic swings of bipolar depression, or manic-depressives. I did a paper on this in a Clinical Psychology class at Harvard, and I’ve done psychiatric work and seen the results first hand. There are a lot of theories on why it works, but no good proof. It does work extremely well at getting someone out of a single depressive episode. —                                 Nico Garcia

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=Anyway I had total amnesia for a good hour. At first I couldn’t remember =who I was. Over the next three or four hours I slowly remembered the =steps leading to my reaction. Because I experienced amnesia, I would have to =say I might have lost quite a few brain cells that day. Perhaps.  But amnesia doesn’t require the loss of brain cells. =It was the first and =only time I have ever experienced temporary memory loss. A very strange =experience! Have you ever had any other equally traumatic experiences?

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Back in 1982 I had a serious Insulin reaction which rendered me unconcious.

[deleted hypo episode causing unconsciousness] Anyway I had total amnesia for a good hour. At first I couldn’t remember who I was. Over the next three or four hours I slowly remembered the steps leading to my reaction. Because I experienced amnesia, I would have to say I might have lost quite a few brain cells that day. It was the first and only time I have ever experienced temporary memory loss. A very strange experience! Scott Fletcher Prince Edward Island, Canada

The same amnesia follows a good rap on the head that knocks you out for a while.  I’ve had a few of those from bicycling accidents (I wear a helmet!!). In the case of a concussion, the cause of the amnesia is that memory of events just prior to the accident doesn’t get a chance to move from short-term memory to long-term storage.  Recent events disappear quickly from short-term memory. So, when you wake up, there’s nothing of the period just prior to the accident. Of course this is not the same *cause* as hypo-induced unconsciousness.  I bet it’s the same principle.  If you lost that much memory from total destruction of cells from a singly hypo episode, I think we’d all have died long ago! James

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Before 1992 all my doctors told me not to worry about such incidents. In 1992 I had Doctor both in Massachusetts and Berkeley.  Both told me that such incidents were to be scrupulously avoided because a few brain cells went down each time.  They used the same phrase, in fact, suggesting that they had both read the same Doctor’s Newsletter. This is oneof those issues about which I feel mercilously flim-flammed. Is there any wisdom out there? Back in 1982 I had a serious Insulin reaction which rendered me unconcious. At the time I was a University Student who had a touch of the flu. I slept in and realizing I was late for class, didn’t test myself, gave my shot and rushed to one of the schools cafeterias for a bite to eat. Neddless to say I didn’t make it to the cafeteria. I woke up in a hospital bed with a couple of doctors looking over me. I was unconcious for about 30 minutes. The parametics who found me gave me some kind of sugar solution right away which saved my life. Anyway I had total amnesia for a good hour. At first I couldn’t remember who I was. Over the next three or four hours I slowly remembered the steps leading to my reaction. Because I experienced amnesia, I would have to say I might have lost quite a few brain cells that day. It was the first and only time I have ever experienced temporary memory loss. A very strange experience! Scott Fletcher Prince Edward Island, Canada

The worst hypo I experienced was in 1979. I didn’t actually lose consciousness, but I got close – I was very confused and couldn’t walk without help. (I also vomited, which could have been very dangerous if a had lost consciousness.) Our family doctor took some time to diagnose the condition. Blood glucose meters weren’t common at the time, and I must have been producing just enough glycogen to stay conscious, confusing the isuue significantly. Anyway, once I was fully alert, I noticed partial amnesia for a few hours. I completely forgot a few words. I remember not knowing the word "aspirin" for example. It is possible that I completely lost memory of these words, but rapidly re-learnt them. Definitely not an experience to repeat. Switched Networks Research Centre                      ph: +61-42-213244 University of Wollongong, NSW 2522, Australia         fax: +61-42-213236

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[Discussing amnesia cause by hypoglycaemia.] The same amnesia follows a good rap on the head that knocks you out for a while.  I’ve had a few of those from bicycling accidents (I wear a helmet!!). In the case of a concussion, the cause of the amnesia is that memory of events just prior to the accident doesn’t get a chance to move from short-term memory to long-term storage.  Recent events disappear quickly from short-term memory. So, when you wake up, there’s nothing of the period just prior to the accident.

I don’t think this is the only amensia mechanism caused by a bad hypo. In my only bad one (see my previous post), I experienced no short-term memory loss (possibly because I didn’t completely lose consciousness), but I did experience some selective amnesia – in my case, forgetting a few words. Of course this is not the same *cause* as hypo-induced unconsciousness.  I bet it’s the same principle.  If you lost that much memory from total destruction of cells from a singly hypo episode, I think we’d all have died long ago!

We’re not talking about the usual, everyone-gets-one-occasionally type of hypo here. We’re talking about the really severe ones where there is reduced consciousness or unconsciousness, and even danger of death. Consequently, your last comment doesn’t seem valid. Incidentally, "insulin shock therapy" is (or was) a psychiatric treatment, presumably beacuse of the neurotoxic effects of low blood glucose. I don’t know much about it though. Does anyone know precisely what it’s purpose is? Switched Networks Research Centre                      ph: +61-42-213244 University of Wollongong, NSW 2522, Australia         fax: +61-42-213236

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Jeremy writes …. Incidentally, "insulin shock therapy" is (or was) a psychiatric treatment, presumably beacuse of the neurotoxic effects of low blood glucose. I don’t know much about it though. Does anyone know precisely what it’s purpose is?

I read somewhere that it was used as a form of torture in Latin America when the infamous death squads were running around killing and abducting people. It wouldn’t suprise if some sick individual has tried it as a torture technique. It would scare the hell out of me knowing what the end result would be. Perhaps it would be even scarier for those who did not know what to expect. Another example of man’s humanity to man. Scott Fletcher Prince Edward Island, Canada

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I think the point of insulin shock therapy was that it produced convulsions analogous to those produced by electroshock.

Response:

I think the point of insulin shock therapy was that it produced convulsions analogous to those produced by electroshock.

I seem to recall reading that the development of the procedure was based on the observation that diabetics were substantially under-represented as scitzophrenics (suspect spelling), and that the above supposition was called on to explain this.  I’m not a psychiatrist, but my impression is that Electro Convulsive Therapy worked by the complete disruption of normal mental processes, the convulsions were a symptom of that rather than the cause of the apparent improvement in symptoms. Peter A. Stockwell

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Darrell Barton some time back (2321, I think) speaks of learning from DCCT that hypoglycemic episodes were not dangerous to the brain if promptly treated.  Could someone remind me what DCCT is. Before 1992 all my doctors told me not to worry about such incidents. In 1992 I had Doctor both in Massachusetts and Berkeley.  Both told me that such incidents were to be scrupulously avoided because a few brain cells went down each time.  They used the same phrase, in fact, suggesting that they had both read the same Doctor’s Newsletter. This is oneof those issues about which I feel mercilously flim-flammed. Is there any wisdom out there?

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… Before 1992 all my doctors told me not to worry about such incidents. In 1992 I had Doctor both in Massachusetts and Berkeley.  Both told me that such incidents were to be scrupulously avoided because a few brain cells went down each time.  They used the same phrase, in fact, suggesting that they had both read the same Doctor’s Newsletter. This is oneof those issues about which I feel mercilously flim-flammed. Is there any wisdom out there?

Back in 1982 I had a serious Insulin reaction which rendered me unconcious. At the time I was a University Student who had a touch of the flu. I slept in and realizing I was late for class, didn’t test myself, gave my shot and rushed to one of the schools cafeterias for a bite to eat. Neddless to say I didn’t make it to the cafeteria. I woke up in a hospital bed with a couple of doctors looking over me. I was unconcious for about 30 minutes. The parametics who found me gave me some kind of sugar solution right away which saved my life. Anyway I had total amnesia for a good hour. At first I couldn’t remember who I was. Over the next three or four hours I slowly remembered the steps leading to my reaction. Because I experienced amnesia, I would have to say I might have lost quite a few brain cells that day. It was the first and only time I have ever experienced temporary memory loss. A very strange experience! Scott Fletcher Prince Edward Island, Canada

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Question:

Wasn’t insulin shock therapy used at one time? If so, that indicates that at least permanent changes were believed possible. — Clarence Wilkerson       HomePage:     http://www.math.purdue.edu/~wilker Dept. of Mathematics       Messages:   (765) 494-1903, FAX 494-0548 Purdue University,         W. Lafayette, IN 47907-1395            

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Hypo’s destroy brain cells just like hypoxia but slower, John. Dave Groves http://go.compuserve.com/diabetes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo    the same as with a good drunk?    I doubt it.  I believe you would black out before you could possibly    have brain damage. I am not so sure,  Though you are correct that there would not be any SERIOUS brain damage from a single hypo till well after you pass out. I suspect there can be minor damage, and that these minor damages can add up over time and become major. There are a few studies addressing this, Check out CHID or NIDDK with a search of: hypoglycemia AND brain And you should get a few hits I do not know that they have formed a clear consensus yet however. "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" Using a Java script enabled browser go to:  http://go.compuserve.com/diabetes Anyone can read, Members can post, If you join Compuserve mention 73455,43 Never go into a hug off balance. Net-Tamer V 1.08X – Registered

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Wendy, I’m surprised at you! Why is it that when people want to insult men, they call them "old ladies"? And since you’ll be one (assuming you plan to survive that long, though that may be a reasonable assumption since I haven’t seen your "one finger on the escape key" tag line lately), why would you use that as an insult? — Nanuq of the North Remove grzl to send email: I’m only a grizzly before (decaf) coffee! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<I told you all already, Richard’s been dead for years. Get front row seats to a Stones concert, and you can see the strings they have attached to him so they can move him across the stage.. At 300 bucks a pop, I don’t think so.  If I want to see a bunch of old ladies jerkin’ and boppin’ around on stage, I’ll go to the Christmas pageant at the nursing home.

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I have a text-book from the ’50s on insulin convulsive therapy for mental illness treatment.  Thank GOD they gave it up. Dave Groves – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wasn’t insulin shock therapy used at one time? If so, that indicates that at least permanent changes were believed possible. Insulin shock therapy is a mis-nomer, as is "Electro Shock Therapy". The idea was to cause *CONVULSIONS*, which were found to work well with certain forms of mental illness (namely singular episodes of mono-polar depression). Insulin was used to cause the convulsion, but was replaced with electricity later, which could be done much more safely and controllable. It’s still pretty scary, and is a source of a lot of horror flicks. And there were undoubtedly *LOTS* of cases where it was used inappropriately. Every medical student and his brother has their own theory of why this works: none of them, when I wrote a paper on this 10 years ago, had a decent testable theory that actually explained it.  But it *DOES* work for certain disorders: just not as many as some folks have claimed.

Response:

Wasn’t insulin shock therapy used at one time? If so, that indicates that at least permanent changes were believed possible.

Insulin shock therapy is a mis-nomer, as is "Electro Shock Therapy". The idea was to cause *CONVULSIONS*, which were found to work well with certain forms of mental illness (namely singular episodes of mono-polar depression). Insulin was used to cause the convulsion, but was replaced with electricity later, which could be done much more safely and controllable. It’s still pretty scary, and is a source of a lot of horror flicks. And there were undoubtedly *LOTS* of cases where it was used inappropriately. Every medical student and his brother has their own theory of why this works: none of them, when I wrote a paper on this 10 years ago, had a decent testable theory that actually explained it.  But it *DOES* work for certain disorders: just not as many as some folks have claimed.

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<<I told you all already, Richard’s been dead for years. Get front row seats to a Stones concert, and you can see the strings they have attached to him so they can move him across the stage.. At 300 bucks a pop, I don’t think so.  If I want to see a bunch of old ladies jerkin’ and boppin’ around on stage, I’ll go to the Christmas pageant at the nursing home. Wendy

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     Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo    the same as with a good drunk?    I doubt it.  I believe you would black out before you could possibly    have brain damage. I am not so sure,  Though you are correct that there would not be any SERIOUS brain damage from a single hypo till well after you pass out. I suspect there can be minor damage, and that these minor damages can add up over time and become major. There are a few studies addressing this, Check out CHID or NIDDK with a search of: hypoglycemia AND brain And you should get a few hits I do not know that they have formed a clear consensus yet however. "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" Using a Java script enabled browser go to:  http://go.compuserve.com/diabetes Anyone can read, Members can post, If you join Compuserve mention 73455,43 Never go into a hug off balance. Net-Tamer V 1.08X – Registered

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: I remember you posting some last summer, but I don’t recall many : details. Matt is Type 1, correct? Was he diagnosed as a child/teen? he’s type 1, initially misdiagnosed as a type 2 (in spite of the fact that he’d lost 100 pounds while eating enormous amounts of food and had ketone breath the dr could smell across the room). it came on top of a couple of moderate crises in his life (he finished school, finished his first picture book illustrating assignment, moved from san francisco to so cal, got flooded out of his house, then moved to athens, georgia all in the space of half a year or so). he ignored raging symptoms for a year because he absolutely could not bear the idea of being diabetic, because he used sugar as a way to cope. up until just before we fell in love, he was being very badly handled by an endo in athens who was content to keep him around 200. he started experimenting with a basal-bolus system before he’d even heard of the term, and i started researching things and finding tools he could use to tweak his regimen so he could live as he wanted to. i think adjusting to being type 1 is much harder when you’re an adult; it’s really devastating to be told that you have to change all of the patterns of your life when you’ve spent 30 years building them up. it was especially hard for him because he’s an artist; he was used to living on an irregular schedule and his first dietitian told him that if he didn’t adhere to a 2500-cal ada diet, he would certainly die very soon. (at the time, he was on oral meds which did nothing, so he still had the raging hunger and thirst.) i think he’s adjusted to it now that he feels as if he’s in control of the diabetes. unfortunately, he was never able to get effective treatment for the depression (though it looks as if he will now). : It’s tough stuff. But you and Matt helping each other is the name of the : game. thanks. i hope things work out. we agree that we still love each other deeply — it’s just not sure what that’s going to mean yet. — sine | deb venting for venting’s sake

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Deb, : Did you mention why Matt did this? in another post, sort of. he has suffered from bouts of clinical depression off and on since he was a teenager. in the spring, he deliberately stopped taking his antidepressants because he was frustrated by the anorgasmia they were causing. around this time, he also realized that he and his therapist were not working well together and asked for a referral to someone else. the referral never came through, his efforts to find a therapist through other means were failing, we’d had what felt like non-stop houseguests since february, and i was having an unrelated freakout of my own because of some major stress i’d been under. a lot of my tension was coming out as irritability and bitchiness, and i was refusing to do things i knew i needed to to stay okay (i’m also being treated for depression and anxiety/panic attacks). the night he jumped, we’d had an argument about something he’d done to keep me safe; i felt he’d been dishonest. it was just too much pressure for him, and he couldn’t explain to me how he felt (in part because he’s not good at asserting himself in general, in part because my anger (any anger, really) scared him). things seemed unbearable to him. he saw his only options as watching me self-destruct or dying, and dying seemed preferable. fortunately, he wasn’t successful, and i’ve been working in therapy (and will work with him in couples therapy in a month or two) to figure out how to constructively deal with frustration/stress and how to accept that my life is my responsibility and no one is obligated to save me. there are a lot of painful things left to work through, but i’m cautiously optimistic. — sine | deb (now *that* was too much information)

Deb, I remember you posting some last summer, but I don’t recall many details. Matt is Type 1, correct? Was he diagnosed as a child/teen? It’s tough stuff. But you and Matt helping each other is the name of the game. Good Luck, Jennifer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband asked me to look up this info for him.  Does anyone know the answer.  He has had a bad cold lately & subsequently his number has been all over the place.  He went Hypo 3 times yesterday – luckily he cant tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? Thanks – appreciate anyone’s input — Amanda Lucas Amanda, As a long-term Type 1 who has have many bad hypo’s over the years, I don’t think any brain cells suffer. A lot of rock stars whack out their bodies (and brain cells) with coke, heroine, and pills. Yet, many of them survive and remain very coherent. Although Beach Boy, Brian Wilson, is questionable. Not to mention the "Corpse" (Keith Richards Beav And Keith manages to STILL stumble across a stage, Beav. Imagine! Although he probably doesn’t even remember the Queen’s name.

It’s not much more than an even bet he remember his OWN name Beav

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband asked me to look up this info for him.  Does anyone know the answer.  He has had a bad cold lately & subsequently his number has been all over the place.  He went Hypo 3 times yesterday – luckily he cant tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? Thanks – appreciate anyone’s input — Amanda Lucas Amanda, As a long-term Type 1 who has have many bad hypo’s over the years, I don’t think any brain cells suffer. A lot of rock stars whack out their bodies (and brain cells) with coke, heroine, and pills. Yet, many of them survive and remain very coherent. Although Beach Boy, Brian Wilson, is questionable.

Not to mention the "Corpse" (Keith Richards Beav

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband asked me to look up this info for him.  Does anyone know the answer.  He has had a bad cold lately & subsequently his number has been all over the place.  He went Hypo 3 times yesterday – luckily he cant tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? Thanks – appreciate anyone’s input — Amanda Lucas Amanda, As a long-term Type 1 who has have many bad hypo’s over the years, I don’t think any brain cells suffer. A lot of rock stars whack out their bodies (and brain cells) with coke, heroine, and pills. Yet, many of them survive and remain very coherent. Although Beach Boy, Brian Wilson, is questionable. Not to mention the "Corpse" (Keith Richards Beav

And Keith manages to STILL stumble across a stage, Beav. Imagine! Although he probably doesn’t even remember the Queen’s name. Jennifer

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"my partner was having really frequent hypos (sounds kind of like your husband) a year ago, and he was not especially happy living that way. since his a1c was in the normal range, he had some roomm to play with and his arnp suggested that he loosen things up a bit. if your husband is going really hypo two or three times a day, maybe he needs to cut himself some slack. life is really much nicer without so many of them." IF YOU HAD read the original posting a little more carefully you would have noticed that he does not normally go hypo two or three times a day, but he has a cold, so it is messing up his control!

Kristenn

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: IF YOU HAD read the original posting a little more carefully you would have : noticed that he does not normally go hypo two or three times a day, but he : has a cold, so it is messing up his control! no criticism was intended. if a cold is sending you way hypo, and it’s going to be around a week to 10 days (most colds are), you might want to consider adjusting your insulin the same way you would adjust it if an illness were sending you sky-high. — sine | deb not sure exactly how she prompted such an acid response, but sorta used to it after 7 years of usenet.

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lol – thanks jennifer – good answer. My Bob is Type 1 but only diagnosed for 2+ years.  Still learning the ins and outs.  With so much hype on keeping your number exactly right, he starts to wonder about instant effects of lo/high bgs. — Amanda Lucas Reach me by ICQ. My ICQ# is 2805047 or, * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2805047 (go there and try it!)

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: tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, : during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more : brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms : mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are : the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo : the same as with a good drunk? i asked about this at a presentation at uw last month. basically, they said that there aren’t any known long-term effects of having frequent hypos. my question was basically "how tight is to tight control?" and the answer was that it depends on the individual and his/her lifestyle. my partner was having really frequent hypos (sounds kind of like your husband) a year ago, and he was not especially happy living that way. since his a1c was in the normal range, he had some roomm to play with and his arnp suggested that he loosen things up a bit. he started decreasing his basal dose (which was too high) and fine-tuned his meal doses. he eventually ended up with an a1c just within the normal range while having only a few hypos a week, and decided he was happy with the numbers and could live with having the occasional hypo. if your husband is going really hypo two or three times a day, maybe he needs to cut himself some slack. life is really much nicer without so many of them. — sine | deb who found life nicer when matt wasn’t hypo all the time, too.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? I doubt it.  I believe you would black out before you could possibly have brain damage.  If a person hasn’t gone unconscious then I doubt that there could be brain damage.  And even if you go unconscious, that doesn’t necessarily imply brain damage.  I’m no medical expert, so this is just my estimate. I’m aware of at least one comatose woman who actually was comatose due to insulin reaction. See, after you pass out, what happens then? If you’ve really screwed up, such as a massive insulin overdose, I suspect that you could overpower the glucagon reaction and succeed in suicide or severe brain damage. Also remember the murder trial of Claus von Bulow, who allegedly killed his diabetic wife with extra insulin injections for her millions.

I read the book about Sunny and Claus. Sunny wasn’t diabetic. But she did like her drugs. Dr Biggs mentioned (a while back) that the combination of her drinking and drugs WITH the insulin Klaus gave her, is what did her in. Although she’s been in a coma for well over a decade. Jennifer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’m aware of at least one comatose woman who actually was comatose : due to insulin reaction. See, after you pass out, what happens then? : If you’ve really screwed up, such as a massive insulin overdose, I suspect : that you could overpower the glucagon reaction and succeed in suicide : or severe brain damage. shortly before he jumped off the bridge, matthew overdosed on 3000 units of humalog (that is not a typo). his bg went down to about 30 (all measurements in mg/dl; divide by 18.2 to convert).  and stayed there for an hour or two. he finally decided that it wasn’t going to work and started treating the hypo. after about 50 g of carb had no effect, he told me what he’d done and i got him to eat several ounces of pancake syrup and drink some juice, then put him in the car and took him to the emergency room. by the time we got there, he was at about 70-80. half an hour after we got there (after they started a dextrose 5% iv but before they pushed any glucose) he was up close to 200. they pushed 50g of glucose iv, worried because his potassium levels were low (apparently insulin overdoses deplete potassium) and his heart rhythms were irregular, and admitted him to the icu. over the next few hours, his bg stayed fairly high, but then within the space of 90 minutes it dropped about 100 points, so they pushed 50g more of iv glucose. they also fed him normal meals and encouraged him to eat. he was in icu for a day and half, and in hospital for two days after that. for the first two days, they gave him no insulin at all, and his bg stayed around normal levels even though he was eating regular meals. the doctors couldn’t find anything about humalog overdoses in the literature but assumed that his body had been unable to handle the overload and had stored the excess in fat cells, where it was slowly released. his endo later told him that insulin overdose could make you a vegetable but that it was an incredibly unreliable and unlikely-to-work method of suicide. (there were also turf wars about this – the general med people didn’t call in the endocrinologists, who were *pissed*. they were very annoyed that after the first 36 hours or so, his bg was measured only once every four hours. i think they saw a publication slipping out of their hands.) — sine | deb http://www.drizzle.com/~llama/wall.html

Deb, Did you mention why Matt did this?

Response:

: Deb, : Did you mention why Matt did this? in another post, sort of. he has suffered from bouts of clinical depression off and on since he was a teenager. in the spring, he deliberately stopped taking his antidepressants because he was frustrated by the anorgasmia they were causing. around this time, he also realized that he and his therapist were not working well together and asked for a referral to someone else. the referral never came through, his efforts to find a therapist through other means were failing, we’d had what felt like non-stop houseguests since february, and i was having an unrelated freakout of my own because of some major stress i’d been under. a lot of my tension was coming out as irritability and bitchiness, and i was refusing to do things i knew i needed to to stay okay (i’m also being treated for depression and anxiety/panic attacks). the night he jumped, we’d had an argument about something he’d done to keep me safe; i felt he’d been dishonest. it was just too much pressure for him, and he couldn’t explain to me how he felt (in part because he’s not good at asserting himself in general, in part because my anger (any anger, really) scared him). things seemed unbearable to him. he saw his only options as watching me self-destruct or dying, and dying seemed preferable. fortunately, he wasn’t successful, and i’ve been working in therapy (and will work with him in couples therapy in a month or two) to figure out how to constructively deal with frustration/stress and how to accept that my life is my responsibility and no one is obligated to save me. there are a lot of painful things left to work through, but i’m cautiously optimistic. — sine | deb (now *that* was too much information)

Response:

My husband asked me to look up this info for him.  Does anyone know the answer.  He has had a bad cold lately & subsequently his number has been all over the place.  He went Hypo 3 times yesterday – luckily he cant tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? Thanks – appreciate anyone’s input — Amanda Lucas

Response:

 Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? I doubt it.  I believe you would black out before you could possibly have brain damage.  If a person hasn’t gone unconscious then I doubt that there could be brain damage.  And even if you go unconscious, that doesn’t necessarily imply brain damage.  I’m no medical expert, so this is just my estimate.

I’m aware of at least one comatose woman who actually was comatose due to insulin reaction. See, after you pass out, what happens then? If you’ve really screwed up, such as a massive insulin overdose, I suspect that you could overpower the glucagon reaction and succeed in suicide or severe brain damage. Also remember the murder trial of Claus von Bulow, who allegedly killed his diabetic wife with extra insulin injections for her millions.

Response:

: I’m aware of at least one comatose woman who actually was comatose : due to insulin reaction. See, after you pass out, what happens then? : If you’ve really screwed up, such as a massive insulin overdose, I suspect : that you could overpower the glucagon reaction and succeed in suicide : or severe brain damage. shortly before he jumped off the bridge, matthew overdosed on 3000 units of humalog (that is not a typo). his bg went down to about 30 (all measurements in mg/dl; divide by 18.2 to convert).  and stayed there for an hour or two. he finally decided that it wasn’t going to work and started treating the hypo. after about 50 g of carb had no effect, he told me what he’d done and i got him to eat several ounces of pancake syrup and drink some juice, then put him in the car and took him to the emergency room. by the time we got there, he was at about 70-80. half an hour after we got there (after they started a dextrose 5% iv but before they pushed any glucose) he was up close to 200. they pushed 50g of glucose iv, worried because his potassium levels were low (apparently insulin overdoses deplete potassium) and his heart rhythms were irregular, and admitted him to the icu. over the next few hours, his bg stayed fairly high, but then within the space of 90 minutes it dropped about 100 points, so they pushed 50g more of iv glucose. they also fed him normal meals and encouraged him to eat. he was in icu for a day and half, and in hospital for two days after that. for the first two days, they gave him no insulin at all, and his bg stayed around normal levels even though he was eating regular meals. the doctors couldn’t find anything about humalog overdoses in the literature but assumed that his body had been unable to handle the overload and had stored the excess in fat cells, where it was slowly released. his endo later told him that insulin overdose could make you a vegetable but that it was an incredibly unreliable and unlikely-to-work method of suicide. (there were also turf wars about this – the general med people didn’t call in the endocrinologists, who were *pissed*. they were very annoyed that after the first 36 hours or so, his bg was measured only once every four hours. i think they saw a publication slipping out of their hands.) — sine | deb http://www.drizzle.com/~llama/wall.html

Response:

 Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk?

I doubt it.  I believe you would black out before you could possibly have brain damage.  If a person hasn’t gone unconscious then I doubt that there could be brain damage.  And even if you go unconscious, that doesn’t necessarily imply brain damage.  I’m no medical expert, so this is just my estimate. Jud McCranie

Response:

A lot of rock stars whack out their bodies (and brain cells) with coke, heroine, and pills. Yet, many of them survive and remain very coherent. Although Beach Boy, Brian Wilson, is questionable. Not to mention the "Corpse" (Keith Richards Beav

I told you all already, Richard’s been dead for years. Get front row seats to a Stones concert, and you can see the strings they have attached to him so they can move him across the stage..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband asked me to look up this info for him.  Does anyone know the answer.  He has had a bad cold lately & subsequently his number has been all over the place.  He went Hypo 3 times yesterday – luckily he cant tell you when his bg hits 40-50 so he catches it in time.  Anyway, during a hypo event  yesterday someone said to him – there go a few more brain cells.  Is this true?  We understand that since the symptoms mirror being drunk, often diabetics are not treated properly, but are the results the same as well?  Do you kill off brain cells with a Hypo the same as with a good drunk? Thanks – appreciate anyone’s input — Amanda Lucas

Amanda, As a long-term Type 1 who has have many bad hypo’s over the years, I don’t think any brain cells suffer. A lot of rock stars whack out their bodies (and brain cells) with coke, heroine, and pills. Yet, many of them survive and remain very coherent. Although Beach Boy, Brian Wilson, is questionable. Jennifer

Response:

Question:

I am a medical doctor studying in psychiatry.  I would like to hear your history about your illness and share my view with you.

Response:

I have had diabetes since I was 4, 29 years total. I have also been depressed as long as I can remember and have always wondered if being diabetic with crazy bg levels had anything to do with it. I am currently on 40 mg. prozac. I would appreciate your correspondenc. Thanks.

Response:

One of the problems that many newly diagnosed diabetics have is the depression that occurs with having to learn and live with diabetes. I have met only one endocrinologist who seemed to understand the psychological problems connected to this disease. Many folks call this a period of denial but my own experience would lead me to believe it is much deeper than that for adults. Paul I am a medical doctor studying in psychiatry.  I would like to hear

your history about your illness and share my view with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

CI have had diabetes since I was 4, 29 years total. I have also been Cdepressed as long as I can remember and have always wondered if being Cdiabetic with crazy bg levels had anything to do with it. I am currently Con 40 mg. prozac. I would appreciate your correspondenc. Thanks.    I assume prozac has something to do with your depression. Is that right? I’m not sure what crazy bg levels has to do with depression, either. I’m trying to figure out my own mood swings, being new to diabetes. Perhaps with your experience you can teach me something! —  

Question:

If we had any anti-viral medication, the common cold would have been cured. Would you care to elaborate on the "anti-viral" properties of SJW?  Are you meaning it in the same context as "anti-biotic"?  From most of my experience,

You mentioned ‘properties.’ Saint John’s Wart does contain anti-viral properties, but it does not kill the organism. Bacteria can be killed. We don’t have the current medTech to kill a virus.

Response:

It isnt incumbent upon Shez or any other practitioner here to educate you, thats your responsibility! Exactly. Therefore, Raven BlackBane has the right to post her herbal lore without being held accountable for the outcome.

If RBB posted herbal lore, I would verify that lore with a witch I know and trust and if found useful to me I would thank RBB for that info, just as I did Shez for the help she has given me.Your point being?? Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path.

Response:

Some people become oversensitive to the sun and need to keep out of it while taking SJW. but it has an anti viral effect certainly. its a very usefull herb.

Would you care to elaborate on the "anti-viral" properties of SJW?  Are you meaning it in the same context as "anti-biotic"?  From most of my experience, anti-viral drugs/medications are not all that common, and normally very expensive.  It seems to me that if SJW does have true anti-viral properties (similar to acyclovir or famvir), then it’s use would be far more wide spread. I’ll grant that most of my pharmacolgy is old and rusty from disuse, but I don’t remember much reference to SJW in the mainstream medical community. xizar

Response:

she has given me.Your point being?? Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path.

  You made my point.

Response:

controlled by the brain,and it was found that regular exposure to bright light affected the activity of the pineal gland and suprssed the production of melatonin

What would you know about the pineal gland, shez? Have you ever followed your pineal gland? I think not.

Response:

It isnt incumbent upon Shez or any other practitioner here to educate you, thats your responsibility!

Exactly. Therefore, Raven BlackBane has the right to post her herbal lore without being held accountable for the outcome.

Response:

wizard.com writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – its a box, with a reflective inside surface, the front is covered in a difusing glass. inside their are neon tubes usualy three, and they are as near as you can get to normal daylight, very strong light, they provide almost the full spectrum of sunlight without ultra violet, so you dont get a suntan, just an awfull lot of natural daylight on your retinas,  this creats chemical changes inside your body creating the chemicals normaly produced by sunlight, so if your seasonaly affected, it simply replaces sunlight you need. it makes a huge difference, most sad people are in an almost hybernation state in the winter, and forcing yourself to keep awake and active, is usualy what causes the major depression normaly seen during winter months, MM Shez… tell me where this light box can be found! Al

In England fairly easily you ask your doctor to refer you to the nearest light clinic where you will be assessed as to how badly you have S.A.D. they will loan you a light box, to further assess your reactions. after that if your doctor is a fundholder, it would actually be cheaper for him to provide you with a light box, than a winters worth of tablets. You can however buy them. information on your nearest stockist in England is   S.A.D. lightbox co. Ltd. Unit 1 riverside buisiness centre victoria st high wycomebe bucks England HP112LT. Tel 01494 526051 fax 01494 527005 If your doctor has said your S.A.D. then you can claim vat. back on the lightbox when you buy it, you just fill in a form. it saves 18% well worth having. it says in the leaflet that I have, that they are available in the USA. so perhaps someone getting in touch with these people can get a USA address to add to the thread. their are two types , white light, and natural daylight, I would recoment natural daylight, the lux isnt so high, but it seems to work better and faster. You must get up in the morning to use them, they work best first thing, and you should sit about 18 in away for about half an hour if your low to med SAD and about an hour if you have it bad. you should start seeing the differences in about 3 days, and within 10 days have reached the lights full potential, use it every morning, untill april, and start again sep though on dark days in spring and summer I use the light box, it makes sure I am fully up to par. It also helps children who are dsylexic with their ability to concentrate, and to see the words better. especialy if they use the box while they are working. It also helps with PMS. jet lag. shift work. Hope that all helped. I put list below of all of the physical effects sad has on people who suffer from it. insomnia. and other phase disorders. it is a medical condition, and is thought to affect over two million people in the uk alone. something 80% of sufferers are women. the general symptoms are feeling of gloom and misery lack of interest in normal social activities depression craving for carbohydrates especialy in the autumn sweet food also. often resulting in unwanted weight gain. this becomes a lack of interest in food in spring in some people Sleep patterns are the worst affected, often sufferers find they sleep longer with no benefit for the extra sleep. also the sleep patterns reverse, your more likely to be awake late at night and sleep during the day. cutting down even further on the amount of light you do receive. a vastly reduced interest in sex. often sufferers react quite dramatically to light treatment. Sad symptoms have alot in common with the hibernation cycles in many animals, reaserch shows that the seasonal trigger for hibernation was a response to decreasing light levels, as the days grow shorter the desire to hibernat beacomes greater, this seasonal click is in part affected by the levels of the hormone melatonin, the productio of which is controlled by the brain,and it was found that regular exposure to bright light affected the activity of the pineal gland and suprssed the production of melatonin Acording to the leaflet I am reading they do export to the usa if you can not find any their. Hope this all helps those of you who suffer from SAD. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

I dont hate winter, it leads to the rebirth, but I could sure do without the arthritis! Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path. Ever tried a cortisonal steroid shot? It helps… may not be natural, but if you’re desperate, it relieves!

The light box I use releives 70% of the symptoms, something no drugs can do, I take St johns wort which releives even more of them, so gereraly I am only about 15 to 20 % below par, compared to how I was before the lightbox. those things are miracules, for S.A.D. no drugs, just natural daylight for about an hour a day, I usualy read, and I am up and running like a spring lamb.;) A Committee of Youth; trying to Find the Beauty of the Soul         within All of this World’s ugly Social Madness.

– The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

The light box I use releives 70% of the symptoms, something no drugs can do, I take St johns wort which releives even more of them, so gereraly I am only about 15 to 20 % below par, compared to how I was before the lightbox. those things are miracules, for S.A.D. no drugs, just natural daylight for about an hour a day, I usualy read, and I am up and running like a spring lamb.;) — The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

I would have to agree with this…a friend of mine has a lot less problem with SAD since we bought them a light with the proper spectrum!  Anyone who has recurring depression should chart their depression and see if it could be (in part or whole) SAD since the solution is much less expensive and easy than therapy and drugs.  OTOH if someone is having a pattern of depression and bouts of overenthusiastic energy/mood they might want to make sure they discuss the later with their doctor.  I have a feeling that both SAD and bi-polar depression are underdiagnosed.  When my husband was diagnosed with bi-polar depression a number of friends and family smacked themselves on the head and said, "Of *course*!"…and a dear friend felt the same way once he and his therapist figured out that SAD was compounding the clinical depression. Kat

Response:

Oaky, I give, what’s a light box? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont hate winter, it leads to the rebirth, but I could sure do without the arthritis! Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path. Ever tried a cortisonal steroid shot? It helps… may not be natural, but if you’re desperate, it relieves! The light box I use releives 70% of the symptoms, something no drugs can do, I take St johns wort which releives even more of them, so gereraly I am only about 15 to 20 % below par, compared to how I was before the lightbox. those things are miracules, for S.A.D. no drugs, just natural daylight for about an hour a day, I usualy read, and I am up and running like a spring lamb.;) A Committee of Youth; trying to Find the Beauty of the Soul         within All of this World’s ugly Social Madness. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Okay, I give, what’s a light box?

A box with a light that gives off the same spectrum as the sun.  They have found that people with SAD get better when they are exposed to this spectrum for a certain amount of time a day (I can’t remember the exact amount).  Some grow lights will work for this purpose. Kat

Response:

Oaky, I give, what’s a light box?

its a box, with a reflective inside surface, the front is covered in a difusing glass. inside their are neon tubes usualy three, and they are as near as you can get to normal daylight, very strong light, they provide almost the full spectrum of sunlight without ultra violet, so you dont get a suntan, just an awfull lot of natural daylight on your retinas,  this creats chemical changes inside your body creating the chemicals normaly produced by sunlight, so if your seasonaly affected, it simply replaces sunlight you need. it makes a huge difference, most sad people are in an almost hybernation state in the winter, and forcing yourself to keep awake and active, is usualy what causes the major depression normaly seen during winter months, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dont hate winter, it leads to the rebirth, but I could sure do without the arthritis! Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path. Ever tried a cortisonal steroid shot? It helps… may not be natural, but if you’re desperate, it relieves! The light box I use releives 70% of the symptoms, something no drugs can do, I take St johns wort which releives even more of them, so gereraly I am only about 15 to 20 % below par, compared to how I was before the lightbox. those things are miracules, for S.A.D. no drugs, just natural daylight for about an hour a day, I usualy read, and I am up and running like a spring lamb.;) A Committee of Youth; trying to Find the Beauty of the Soul         within All of this World’s ugly Social Madness. — The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

– The ‘Old Craft’ lady               http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/

Response:

Some people become oversensitive to the sun and need to keep out of it while taking SJW. but it has an anti viral effect certainly. its a very usefull herb.

Are you aware that when and how much of the Saint John’s Wart herb you take can affect your health? Don’t advise us on herbalism if you can’t provide all of the ‘lore’ to us. We want to know when and how much in addition to how to prepare the plant. If you don’t know this then you have no business providing the knowledge. Someone could take you to court for this.

Response:

Some people become oversensitive to the sun and need to keep out of it while taking SJW. but it has an anti viral effect certainly. its a very usefull herb. Are you aware that when and how much of the Saint John’s Wart herb you take can affect your health? Don’t advise us on herbalism if you can’t provide all of the ‘lore’ to us. We want to know when and how much in addition to how to prepare the plant. If you don’t know this then you have no business providing the knowledge. Someone could take you to court for this.

Hey, give it a rest! There are all manner of conditions that determine proper dosage. The same as with aspirin. Once you know a particular herb is useful for a purpose it is up to you to find out or go to someone familiar with the herb, you, and your circumstances.  If Shez were to prescribe a dosage, to the NG, where people with differing needs and states of health, THAT would be improper. This is alt.religion.wicca were the readers should have some familiarity with the healing function of a witch or at least know a witch who does. It isnt incumbent upon Shez or any other practitioner here to educate you, thats your responsibility! Rick Brewster May your path be light and may Light be your Path.

Response:

<snip

Question:

Hello all, my name is Andre. First of all I must say that I admire your goodness in  helping others. I came down with a deep depression on Jan.1 2003. But I think my journey down started months before that. I had felt a terrible tension and pressure at the back of my neck for about 6 months that became progressively worse. I even felt tremors around my neck area; I think this is what led to my depression which very fast became anxiety and terrible agitation and desrperation feelings. My whole system shut down, couldn’t eat or sleep or sbarely sit down. Night sweats and all. I went to a psychiatrist who is 82 years old and he put me on prozac, but the next day I was worse and in the ER. The psychiatrist changed me to 25 mg of Vistaril in the morning 1 mg of Klonopin at noon and 25 more mg of Vistaril at night.       I got about 75% better but it flactuates a lot. Then I started reading about all the brain chemicals and what not to try to investigate my situation. I don’t like to take drugs so I would like to get off them as soon as a I can. My question is: since most of the cases are due to a defecency in Serotonin can a person get better by taking a product call 5HTP or something similar? Wouldn’t that take the place of all those other dangerous drugs (ssri’s and tranqualizers)? I don’t know what type of drug classification Vistaril falls under but I suspect it’s not that healthy either.        By your experience, is it possible that I may recuperate or will I have to eventually take the SSRI’s? I’m taking 5HTP anyway right now 50 mg a day, I have no idea if it’ll work or not. My wife has helped me immensely through my ordeal, and I feel terrible that she has to see me in these conditions (I wanted to be the one who protecs her throughout our lifetime). Can the serotonin levels be measured in a blood test? Can the neuro- hormones?      In the past I fell into a depression twice but it was because of a break-up in a relationship. This last fall has no reason to be. I have a great wife like I mentioned before, a good job that keeps us living comfortable, my parents are great and still alive (I’m 45 by the way).        When I recall my childhood I remember a time around the age of ten when I sudendly had a tremendous sense of panic ( I had been sent to Europe on vacation without my parents and that’s what I attributed it to.) But I do remember almost jumping out the kitchen balcony to escape that dreaded sensation. Sorry for so many questions but I don’t know who else to ask.      I would also love to help anyone out there who has troubles similar to these. I found out that it gives me a great feeling to make someone else feel good. I learned that from my wife. Thank you for listening to me and God bless you all and I hope everyone can recover their health soon.

Response:

into the ether: Thank you for your replies How long have you been taking 5HTP? Are there any other products out there that help as well? I heard from a doctor that Magnesium is essential for the brain( even dossages as high as 800 to 1000 mg a day). Most multi vitamins contain magnesium. I’ll take your advice and do some research on the internet, I have to figure out what unipolar is compared to bipolar; I suspect unipolars lack the manic episodes, no?

I’ve been on 5htp for almost 7 years.  I believe I gave you a list of supplements that can help you sleep.  There is one more thing you can try and that is GABA (an amino acid).  GABA functions much like Neurontin–I took it for 2 years and then it just stopped working–so I got Neurontin–which works much better for me.  Neurontin can be sedating for SOME people–not for me. Magnesium helps with muscle function.  Some people find it MILDLY sedating–so they take it at bedtime.  Magnesium malate (magnesium and malic acid) are used for chronic pain–especially fibromyalgia. I take 1200 mg/day of magnesium malate. WARNING:  If you take Neurontin, you MUST dose your Neurontin at least two hours before or after you take Magnesium, as magnesium can negate the effects of Neurontin. HTH, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.

Response:

Thank you for your replies How long have you been taking 5HTP? Are there any other products out there that help as well? I heard from a doctor that Magnesium is essential for the brain( even dossages as high as 800 to 1000 mg a day). Most multi vitamins contain magnesium. I’ll take your advice and do some research on the internet, I have to figure out what unipolar is compared to bipolar; I suspect unipolars lack the manic episodes, no? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to the group Andre! Bonnie — Hello all, my name is Andre. First of all I must say that I admire your goodness in  helping others. I came down with a deep depression on Jan.1 2003. But I think my journey down started months before that. I had felt a terrible tension and pressure at the back of my neck for about 6 months that became progressively worse. I even felt tremors around my neck area; I think this is what led to my depression which very fast became anxiety and terrible agitation and desrperation feelings. My whole system shut down, couldn’t eat or sleep or sbarely sit down. Night sweats and all. I went to a psychiatrist who is 82 years old and he put me on prozac, but the next day I was worse and in the ER. The psychiatrist changed me to 25 mg of Vistaril in the morning 1 mg of Klonopin at noon and 25 more mg of Vistaril at night.       I got about 75% better but it flactuates a lot. Then I started reading about all the brain chemicals and what not to try to investigate my situation. I don’t like to take drugs so I would like to get off them as soon as a I can. My question is: since most of the cases are due to a defecency in Serotonin can a person get better by taking a product call 5HTP or something similar? Wouldn’t that take the place of all those other dangerous drugs (ssri’s and tranqualizers)? I don’t know what type of drug classification Vistaril falls under but I suspect it’s not that healthy either.        By your experience, is it possible that I may recuperate or will I have to eventually take the SSRI’s? I’m taking 5HTP anyway right now 50 mg a day, I have no idea if it’ll work or not. My wife has helped me immensely through my ordeal, and I feel terrible that she has to see me in these conditions (I wanted to be the one who protecs her throughout our lifetime). Can the serotonin levels be measured in a blood test? Can the neuro- hormones?      In the past I fell into a depression twice but it was because of a break-up in a relationship. This last fall has no reason to be. I have a great wife like I mentioned before, a good job that keeps us living comfortable, my parents are great and still alive (I’m 45 by the way).        When I recall my childhood I remember a time around the age of ten when I sudendly had a tremendous sense of panic ( I had been sent to Europe on vacation without my parents and that’s what I attributed it to.) But I do remember almost jumping out the kitchen balcony to escape that dreaded sensation. Sorry for so many questions but I don’t know who else to ask.      I would also love to help anyone out there who has troubles similar to these. I found out that it gives me a great feeling to make someone else feel good. I learned that from my wife. Thank you for listening to me and God bless you all and I hope everyone can recover their health soon.

Response:

Welcome to our group! more… permanently into the ether: he psychiatrist changed me to 25 mg of Vistaril in the morning 1 mg of Klonopin at noon and 25 more mg of Vistaril at night.

Vistaril is basically an anti-depressant and Klonopin is for anxiety. Here is some information on Vistaril: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/vistaril_cp.htm      I got about 75% better but it flactuates a lot.

It sounds like you are suffering from uni-polar depression and anxiety.  At least that is what you seem to be treated for. Then I started reading about all the brain chemicals and what not to try to investigate my situation. I don’t like to take drugs so I would like to get off them as soon as a I can. My question is: since most of the cases are due to a defecency in Serotonin can a person get better by taking a product call 5HTP or something similar? Wouldn’t that take the place of all those other dangerous drugs (ssri’s and tranqualizers)? I don’t know what type of drug classification Vistaril falls under but I suspect it’s not that healthy either.

5htp is sometimes used to help sleep and for depression.  I take 100 mg at night to help me sleep.  L-tryptophan is preferred, if you can get it, but 5htp works. Never experiment with supplements without informing your doctor.       By your experience, is it possible that I may recuperate or will I have to eventually take the SSRI’s? I’m taking 5HTP anyway right now 50 mg a day, I have no idea if it’ll work or not. My wife has helped me immensely through my ordeal, and I feel terrible that she has to see me in these conditions (I wanted to be the one who protecs her throughout our lifetime). Can the serotonin levels be measured in a blood test? Can the neuro- hormones?

We really can’t give you the answers you seek, as we are not doctors here.  You should ask your doctor the same questions you have asked us. AFAIK, there is no blood test for serotonin.   Depression is not usually due to just low serotonin levels, there is a lot more involved. I’m sorry I’m not much help.  I want to welcome you to the group.  Do some research and come back and tell us what you found! Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.

Response:

Welcome to the group Andre! Bonnie —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, my name is Andre. First of all I must say that I admire your goodness in  helping others. I came down with a deep depression on Jan.1 2003. But I think my journey down started months before that. I had felt a terrible tension and pressure at the back of my neck for about 6 months that became progressively worse. I even felt tremors around my neck area; I think this is what led to my depression which very fast became anxiety and terrible agitation and desrperation feelings. My whole system shut down, couldn’t eat or sleep or sbarely sit down. Night sweats and all. I went to a psychiatrist who is 82 years old and he put me on prozac, but the next day I was worse and in the ER. The psychiatrist changed me to 25 mg of Vistaril in the morning 1 mg of Klonopin at noon and 25 more mg of Vistaril at night.       I got about 75% better but it flactuates a lot. Then I started reading about all the brain chemicals and what not to try to investigate my situation. I don’t like to take drugs so I would like to get off them as soon as a I can. My question is: since most of the cases are due to a defecency in Serotonin can a person get better by taking a product call 5HTP or something similar? Wouldn’t that take the place of all those other dangerous drugs (ssri’s and tranqualizers)? I don’t know what type of drug classification Vistaril falls under but I suspect it’s not that healthy either.        By your experience, is it possible that I may recuperate or will I have to eventually take the SSRI’s? I’m taking 5HTP anyway right now 50 mg a day, I have no idea if it’ll work or not. My wife has helped me immensely through my ordeal, and I feel terrible that she has to see me in these conditions (I wanted to be the one who protecs her throughout our lifetime). Can the serotonin levels be measured in a blood test? Can the neuro- hormones?      In the past I fell into a depression twice but it was because of a break-up in a relationship. This last fall has no reason to be. I have a great wife like I mentioned before, a good job that keeps us living comfortable, my parents are great and still alive (I’m 45 by the way).        When I recall my childhood I remember a time around the age of ten when I sudendly had a tremendous sense of panic ( I had been sent to Europe on vacation without my parents and that’s what I attributed it to.) But I do remember almost jumping out the kitchen balcony to escape that dreaded sensation. Sorry for so many questions but I don’t know who else to ask.      I would also love to help anyone out there who has troubles similar to these. I found out that it gives me a great feeling to make someone else feel good. I learned that from my wife. Thank you for listening to me and God bless you all and I hope everyone can recover their health soon.

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Question:

Kathy – Thanks for taking the time to type all that out – fascinating reading! I just finished my novel, so I will surf on over to Amazon next – hope they have that book. jen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm… evolutionarily speaking, I was always under the impression we were "socially" monogamous and "biologically" nonmogamous. Meaning, there is a social advantage to pair-bonding, but a biological advantage to wandering far and wide astray. To me it seems obvious nonmonogamy was once as important as monogamy – it gave us  the biological advantage of diverse genes and multiple births. But the biological necessity of such a gene is easy to forget these days – as it is overshadowed by advances in medicine, increased life span, and lower birth rates/higher life expecetancies. As for selective advantages, there is evidence that nonmonogamy had an advantage to the tribe as a whole – ensuring that families had stake in supporting each other – while monogamy has its own obvious advantages. Intertribe breeding also played a role in keeping the peace. That was then, I don’t know about now, except to say, if there is a monogamy gene, I suspect there is also a nonmogamy gene right beside it. jen

The evolutionary biology of humans is always a tricky thing to pin down, because we are a very unique (that’s more unique than just plain-vanilla unique), even compared to other primates.  Monogamy is relatively rare in nature, and is not related to "K-selection" (most large mammals are k-selectors, and not monogamous, while some R-selectors are, like these apparantly monogamous voles and seahorses, for example).  Among the primates, about 10% of all species are roughly monogamous.  Of the apes, only gibbons are monogamous, and recent studies indicate that there are a love of cheatin’ hearts out there in gibbon land.  None of the great apes (except, perhaps, us) are monogamous. Now, one of the clues that people have looked to in understanding this puzzle is the highly dependent human infant.  This, however, is not enough to lead directly to a conclusion of monogamy (following the argument that monogamy will ensure females help in caring for infants.  Many other species with dependant infants do not resort to monogamy (canines and felines, e.g.).  In many monogamous species, fathers do not make significant contributions to caring for or provisioning infants (gibbons, for example).  If we were to look to another socially oriented, savanger/marginal preditor for clues to infant rearing practices, we might do well to look to jackels and hyeanas, who both share infant care duties across an entire pack, rather than between a monogamous mother-father unit.  Simply put, monogamy is not the only way to solve the problem of caring for highly dependent human infants, and it is probably not the most effecient, either. Now, one can also look to cross-cultural surveys for clues.  While the formation of a male-female bond that we might call "marriage" is darn-near universal (there are some controversial claims of a handful of cultures that don’t practice anything that could be legitimately defined as "marriage), these bonds are not always expected to be sexually exclusive or life-long.  Many cultures do not prohibit premarital sex, many are open to extramarital sex, and it is also a near universal that there is some legally recognized way to dissolve a marriage.  Polgyny is relatively common, and a few case of polyandrous societies exist as well.  Life-long monogamy is in the clear minority. The "nuclear family" as the basis for household production and childrearing is in a clear minority.  The monogamy-for-childrearing model implies that women mate for life to a single man to ensure his contribution in childcare.  Once you remove the assumption of the nuclear family, then the father’s economic contribution becomes much more expendable.  I find it interesting that in a great number of cultures children refer to large sets of relatives from the parent’s generation as "father" and "mother."  In many matrilineal societies, the mother’s brother plays as great if not a greater role in the child’s upbringing than the father.   So, at any rate, there does not seem to me to be strong evidence to support the claim that humans are biologically ordained to "mate for life."  "Serial monogamy" (maintaining monogamous relationships for at least the period of greatest infant dependency, say 4 years or so) is a more likely possibility, but even that is really just a guess. This is not to say that lifelong monogamy cannot work.  We do all manner of things that we are not biologically ordained to do.  One of the glorious things about our particular evolutionary strategy is that our big ole brain makes us highly flexible in terms of behavioral patterns.  If you take a small-brained creature like a mouse and raise it away from other mice, when it grows up it will still behave like a mouse because it doesn’t need to learn how to be a mouse.  If you take a larger-brained creature like a monkey and raise it in an artificial environment, it will have a much harder time socially, because a larger part of "being a monkey" is learned rather than instinctual.  A human raised apart from humans would have no clue as to how to behave, since that part of our behavior that is learned as opposed to instinctual is even greater.  The result is that any number of mating patterns, kinship systems, environmental adaptations, and forms of social organization are workable, so long as those involved agree to the basic rules. Again, for the interested reader I highly recommend "What’s Love Got to Do with It: The Evolutionary Biology of Human Mating" (I think that’s the right subtitle) by Meredith Small. Although there are a number of books on the topic, I think this one’s not only well-grounded scientifically, but it highly entertaining to read.  It not only touches on the monogamy issue, but such intriguing little topics such as male vs. female orgasm and how often it appears that the human male is biologically designed to have sex (it’s not every day!)                    |Kathy Litherland | People make their own history, but No hacemos el amor;|Dept. of Anthro  | they do not make it under El nos hace        |U. of Illinois   | circumstances of their own choosing

Response:

Hmmm… evolutionarily speaking, I was always under the impression we were "socially" monogamous and "biologically" nonmogamous. Meaning, there is a social advantage to pair-bonding, but a biological advantage to wandering far and wide astray. To me it seems obvious nonmonogamy was once as important as monogamy – it gave us  the biological advantage of diverse genes and multiple births. But the biological necessity of such a gene is easy to forget these days – as it is overshadowed by advances in medicine, increased life span, and lower birth rates/higher life expecetancies. As for selective advantages, there is evidence that nonmonogamy had an advantage to the tribe as a whole – ensuring that families had stake in supporting each other – while monogamy has its own obvious advantages. Intertribe breeding also played a role in keeping the peace. That was then, I don’t know about now, except to say, if there is a monogamy gene, I suspect there is also a nonmogamy gene right beside it. jen

Response:

And what are the selective advantages of monogomy vs. non-monogomy? I would think that under different conditions, one would be favored over the other, as it is in the voles. I wonder which is being favored now?

The primary selective advantage of monogamy (in an evolutionary/historical sense) in humans and other primates is the likelihood that an extra pair of hands will be around to care for the youngsters.  If promiscuity were exhibited by animals that need to invest a lot of energy into a few offspring the result would most likely be a single mother with 1/2 as much time, energy, and protection to devote to her children and a consequent increase in child mortality. If, on the other hand, animals mated for life, one could only have a chance at one ’spouse’ along with all the advantages of increased probability of offspring that survive to adulthood. But as far as the selective advantage in 1999 it is clearly the avoidance of lethal and debilitating sexually transmitted diseases (papillomavirus, HIV, herpes, etc.).  While direct mortality from these may seem low compared to the size of the world population the effects in an evolutionary sense (few or no offspring to pass on the parental chromosomes) my be to eventually rid the human gene pool of "non-monogamy" genes. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Alan, I was in a very similar situation (no kids, about the same age, wife expressed similar marital dissatisfaction, wife had an affair with a mental case, etc.).  I also went through very similar emotions.  While I’m still working through it all there is one thing I can guarantee and that is that time makes the pain and confusion go away.  While it sucks right now you can look forward to knowing that tomorrow, next week, next month will all be better than today.  The strong emotions will dissipate, the pain will subside, your head will clear up. Here are some things I did (and do) to heal at the ‘maximum rate’ that I’ve found to be very effective: 1) Make sure you eat even if you’re not hungry (fruit is usually easy to get down). 2) Write in a journal.  Describe your feelings, list the sources of pain, write letters to her or anyone else, use dialogue, etc.  This will seriously help a lot. 3) Excercise every day or as much as you can.  Not only does excercise release endorphins into your brain which give you a semi-euphoric feeling it also helps your self esteem. 4) Stay away from alcohol (unless your pain is truly unbearable).  I found that while alcohol was useful in the extreme short run when I was absolutely near total despondence (an emotional anaesthetic) it actually just works to prolong the overall suffering.  It also facilitates making stupid decisions. 5) Talk about the problem with friends, family. 6) Don’t make any decisions until the strength of your emotions decreases.  When it first happened to me I told her to get out of my house, I was calling a lawyer in the morning, and I never wanted to see her again.  After a few hours I calmed down and came to realize that I was not in a good emotional/mental state to make rash decisions. Instead she moved out, we communicate very rarely, and this distance has helped me understand things a lot better. 7) Face the emotions head on but don’t torture yourself with unnecessarily painful thoughts and images (you probably know what I mean).  I found that being angry, sad, afraid, even guilty and lonely were unpleasant of course but don’t stick around 24 hours a day and getting them out of your system by experiencing them is the best strategy.  Thinking about/dwelling on the awful, horrible images is totally destructive and you have to consciously keep them out of your mind. I hope this helps.  If you want/need any more information/advice/personal experience/long winded replies feel free to e-mail directly. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Something along this vein…. I had visitation with my kids this weekend, and my s2bx came over for a while, we had dinner, and talked quite a bit. She actually told me that she finally realized just how horrible to me she has been, and apologized. You could’ve knocked me over with a feather. I told her that it meant a lot to me to hear it, and that it would go a long way toward me healing and moving on with my life. Maybe she isn’t as heartless as I thought.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Lawrene, Thanks for your response.  It is very difficult to deal with when you know in your heart that she is making a grave mistake.  Unfortunately, it may be too late for us but one day she might look back on this as well and realize what ‘could have been’. As you mentioned, there is always ‘hope’, which I will carry to the end Sincerely, -Alan

Response:

* Wow. I’m sorry, I’m just amazed at how many people hear the "I’m not * happy" speech (men and women) just to find out the whole thing is * really about that spouse’s affair. But, quite possibly, they were unhappy (read bored and needed variety).

I’ve been thinking about this in an evolution context considering the monogomy gene found in various subspecies of voles. Many human traits have genetic components. I guess they’ve found about 5 genes proven to relate to intelligence on just one chromosone now. What if such a monogomy gene existed in humans? What would it’s physical manifestation appear to be, given that it has no rational basis? Probably "I’m not happy….", probably this need for variety you speak of. And what are the selective advantages of monogomy vs. non-monogomy? I would think that under different conditions, one would be favored over the other, as it is in the voles. I wonder which is being favored now? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Yeah. All you can do is detach. Game over. Yep, detachment is an awesome technique. I know that I can "detach" and it is a tremendous help in all kinds of ugly situations. Once you "detach" you can act with the full power of your rationality, minding strictly what is your own business. char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); }                      http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov

Response:

Hi Lawrene, Thanks for your response.  It is very difficult to deal with when you know in your heart that she is making a grave mistake.  Unfortunately, it may be too late for us but one day she might look back on this as well and realize what ‘could have been’. As you mentioned, there is always ‘hope’, which I will carry to the end Sincerely, -Alan

Response:

I sympathize with you…As to what happened to your wife…I did the same thing to my ex-husband many years ago, and can tell you that I was immature, selfish, self centered, and a total IDIOT!!!  At the time, I thought I had it all figured out, and that happiness (MINE) was all that mattered.  I had no business being married at my emotional state of immaturity, and my kids and husband suffered for it. I finally wrote my ex-husband an apology note, 15 years later, although I am glad he is happy with someone else, and I am struggling through the very miserable marriage I chose 15 years ago. Just get LOTS of support, who will help you through this difficult time. There is always HOPE, so please grab onto it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old.  Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with. Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.  I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this. So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September.  We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us. Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site.  He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October.  A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out. She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).  I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.  She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!  I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do. She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!  Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that.  I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation?? Thanks in advance! -Alan

Response:

One thing I have learned from my own wife is that you can never, ever completely figure out what the heck is going through someones mind when they act that way. I think there is a mental switch in some women that says "Gee, I’m happy, and I  am not supposed to be, so I will be sad and blame it on others." From the sounds of it, this stuff is not your fault. It sounds like she has an honest to god mental condition. Try not to blame yourself, and step back and take a look at her. What is she doing? Is this a person that you would actually like if you just met her on the street right now? Try to put some emotional distance betwwen yourself and her and just let things fall into place. You can’t do much right now, so just go along for the ride. At some point you sort of realize that wives like this are a sort of comic relief to life! Before you buy.

Response:

hiya travel, Sorry to hear about your difficult situation. You know, you are going to have to consider just *who* you are married to. This seems to be not one transgression, but a pattern of very unusual behavior. Please consider – Is this the person that you want to share the rest of your life with? It would seem to me that there would be many more difficult times ahead – and the addition time that the marriage lasts is only going to make those problem seem worse. Are you of a mind to have a family someday? Can you imagine what this situation would be like if there were kids involved? You may want to disengage at this point – stay calm – and consider a what you need to get back the rest of the life that you deserve. Although that may sound cold to you – it may be the best solution – and the one you may want to start addressing *now*. In the meantime – take care of yourself – get excercise, and try to get rest. Do things that *you* enjoy. Drink lots of juice. Best & Kindest –  BD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old. Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with. Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.  I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this. So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September.  We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us.  Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site. He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October.  A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out.  She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).  I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.  She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!  I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do. She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!  Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that.  I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation?? Thanks in advance! -Alan

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Response:

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Response:

I had actually mentioned to her on several occasions that she may want to see a doctor to see if she does have some type of clinical depression.  However, she was always reluctant to go.  My sister is a social worker and said that my wife has all the symptoms of this bi-polar depression. I mean, even when things were really good in our relationship (which seems like light years ago) she would get these weird swings of being depressed. At this point, there is no way that I could suggest this to her again.  She would just tell me that she is depressed because of me and that she feels better now.   My only hope is that perhaps I could suggest this to the therapist that we see.  I still go to the same person that we saw as a couple.  If she knew that the therapist was asking for her to be checked for a complete physical, she may actually do it. I may very well try this. Thanks for the suggestion! -Alan

Response:

Actually, I was rather glad that she picked this person for affair.  Although it doesn’t say much for me, I know that she will not have a good life with this person.  I think a rich, brilliantly handsome body-builder would have been much worse  Anyway, yes, I am looking for a very small hole to crawl into and get away from this all! There is an update to this story – she is moving out of the house in two weeks and I will be moving back in.  I know I should not have left in the first place, but I just could not take being there while she is coming home at 4 AM. It will actually be very hard for me to return there even with her gone. Also, I know it was a big mistake calling her at work and raising a fuss.  It did not help the situation at all.  I have calmed down now and can now deal much better with this situation. -Alan

Response:

Alan, First things first. You need to resolve in your mind if her depression is causing her behavior. Without this knowledge, you’ll have a hard time deciding how to react. Go to any search engine and type in "Dr Ivan’s Depression Central." Follow the links to find an online depression screening test (they have several to choose from.) I’d recommend taking a look at the manic-depressive screening test too – mania (aka bipolar disorder) can present as some out-of-characteristic behaviors, like affairs or climbing through windows. Key here is her sleeping patterns – how have they been? If after scoring her behavior, you can’t definetly say she has a biological condition, then I’d drop that avenue and assume she’s more or less normal and, "depressed" or not, behaving this way on purpose. Then, you can choose how to act accordingly. jen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old.  Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with.  Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.

Wow. I’m sorry, I’m just amazed at how many people hear the "I’m not happy" speech (men and women) just to find out the whole thing is really about that spouse’s affair. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this. So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September.  We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us.  Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site.  He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well.

Stings, doesn’t it? I mean, an affair is an affair, but to find out that you’re dumped or that she’d risk it all for … that she’d throw it all to the wind for someone… LIKE THAT! Not meaning to be judgmental because of his job or anything, but like you say she picked him and didn’t care about you because of him at the time… I know I wanted to crawl into a very small hole. I’ve been there too. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October.  A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out.  She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it.

Bold, huh? She cheats on you and then it’s not her fault, "it just isn’t working out." What a cop out. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house

no-no-no-no-NO… because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).

Shoot! That’s what I was afraid of. You, the guy who was cheated on, ends up paying for the love nest of your cheating wife and her loser lover! It’s un-holy! How can she expect you, want you, to pay for the house with him in it. I don’t know, something truly evil in that. I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.

Mistake… Yell at a pillow, a picture, anything. She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!

Possible. I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do.

So, you’re saying you care more about her than she does about herself. Bad situation to be in. She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!

All people need to feel good about themselves. Right now she’s trying to justify why she’s cheating on you and doing unholy, totally evil things to you. Of course she’s going to say it’s your fault. Don’t believe her. She’s lied to you, cheated on you, used and abused you. Don’t for a minute think that she’s depressed because of you. She’s depressed because of what she has DONE to you. Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that. I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy.

I think that the reason why people who want to leave their marriage want therapy is so they can find a reason to blame someone else. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation??

Yeah. All you can do is detach. Game over. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks in advance! -Alan

Response:

I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile!

<snip Reading your story the first thought to strike was "bi-polar"  … this is a form of illness with wide swings from euphoria to deep depression. Is there any chance your wife would agree to a complete physical to rule out other biological causes (even a malfunctioning thyroid can produce symptoms quite like those of clinical depression) … and if other causes are ruled out, then agree to see a therapist … one who initially would try to bring the brain chemicals back into balance before proceeding with talk therapy?    Regardless of what happens to your marriage, it would be in her best interests to explore this avenue. If she is sick (physically or mentally) she may be in no condition to make decisions that are going to affect the rest of her life.  On the other hand, if you have absolutely no interest in rebuilding your marriage, others have already suggested you retain an attorney and get the divorce over and done with. What you have described are not the workings of a happy, well-adjusted person … if you still love her or at least care about her future, getting her to agree to a medical evaluation and/or therapy would be the way to proceed in my opinion. Floridanewbie

Response:

Alan, A few things: You will NEVER understand what is going through her head.  Just take everything she does for what it is.  She is not interested in you anymore.   When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well.

Don’t dwell on who this guy is.  It does not matter.  He’s scum for even going near a married woman. She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!)

Ok – first of all – do you own this house? DO you rent and Is it leased in both your names?  In either case – you are entitled to be there.  SHE is the one who needs to leave that residence if she wants out.  If she will not leave – file for divorce and have her removed from the premises.  If you own this home, you may lose it if she wants to keep it if it’s in both names.  If you need to stay at your parents’ place, that’s fine.  But make sur eyou have a good lawyer who can help you get your 50% of the proceeds if the home is to be sold.  If at all possible though, you need to stay there and get her out. My ex did very similar things – was up and down and then finally decided she wanted out.  She screwed around as well.  But you know what?  SHe has made it clear it’s over.  All you can do now is take control of the situation and take the upper hand.  It’s now time to stick up for yourself and don’t worry about her.  SHe is clearly not the same person she once was.  IT is a sad thing to see your image of someone die, but it happens, and you will get through this very difficult time. Stay in therapy and eat well!  (Yes, eating well WILL help you get through this – it’s a process that is very stressful and your body needs the extra nutrients you give it!) If you need to talk, we’re all here.  You can feel free to email me privately as well. Take it easy! –*Rob

Response:

As I’ve seen posted here a few other times recently – it’s quite common for people who have affairs to place the blame for their transgressions on the unwitting partner.  We often accept it — I know I did.  After I was alone for awhile, I began to see his anger and accusations for what they really were — a way of deflecting his guilt. I did get the satisfaction of his finally admitting this to me, nearly 3 years post-separation.  By then, I didn’t need to hear him apologize — I’d forgiven him a long time ago — but it still touched me that he did. Barb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old.  Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with.  Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.  I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this. So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September. We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us. Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site.  He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October. A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out. She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).  I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.  She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!  I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do. She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!  Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that. I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation?? Thanks in advance! -Alan

Response:

I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old.  Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with.  Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.  I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this.   So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September.  We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us.  Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site.  He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October.  A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out.  She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).  I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.  She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!  I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do.   She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!  Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that.  I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation?? Thanks in advance! -Alan

Response:

Alan, I’m sorry for your pain.  Life isn’t fair, but you can’t make this marriage work alone.  Do you have a lawyer yet?  If not, I would advise you to get one as soon as possible.  Sounds like your wife is totally confused, but you don’t deserve this kind of treatment.  Good Luck, stay in therapy for yourself!  ((hug)) Daisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I sure am glad that I found this newsgroup.  It is so unfortunate, but yet helpful to hear that others are going through the same thing.  It looks like I will be here for awhile! Here is my story – my wife and I have been married for 2 1/2 years, together for 7.  We have no children, and are both 27 years old.  Everything seemed to be going fine in our marriage until about the beginning of this year.  She started feeling depressed all the time and was hard to deal with.  Finally, at the beginning of July she became very upset and said that she felt she was depressed because I ‘was not paying her enough attention’ and ‘providing enough emotional support’.  After days of these conversations, we agreed to separate for a period.  I voluntarily moved down to my folks house to give her some space. She called about two weeks later and we started talking.  She suggested that we see a therapist, which I was all for.  We started seeing the therapist and things seemed to be getting better.  After about another two weeks I moved back home.  Shortly after that, she told me the inevitable – she had had an affair with a man from her work.  I was completely devastated.  She told me this at the beginning of her parent’s anniversary party so I had to maintain my composure throughout this whole party.  I lost it on the drive home and cried and cried.  That week, she was very upset with herself and cried for about three days straight.  We went back to the therapist and discussed this, and he said that for the marriage to work I would have to forgive her.  I agree to do this. So in August and September everything was going pretty good.  It is essential to this story that we had planned a 1 1/2 week trip to Japan in late September. We make an average income and this trip was a very huge trip for us. Anyway, we talked a little bit during this time about her affair.  She told me who it was – a coworker who recently just transferred to another site.  He is 42 years old (remember, she is 27), has been divorced (he is a parole officer like my wife, and his wife had left him for a criminal on another parole officer’s caseloads!!), has two children, makes very little money, pays child support and has been in a mental institution twice!  When my wife picks someone to have an affair with, she sure chooses well. Anyway, we go on our Japan trip and come back in the first week of October. A week and a half go by – then on Wednesday, Oct. 13th she did not show up at the house.  It was getting close to midnight so I called her family – she was no where to be found.  So I called the police to come over and fill out a report because I was worried about her.  Her father even came over to help out. She eventually showed up at 4 AM in the morning, coming through my bedroom door with these words – "it just isn’t working out".  I could not believe it. Three days later, she said that she is just not happy and that she cannot be married to me anymore.  I was completely devastated (again!).  She said that she is going to have to find another place to live.  Knowing that she could not find a place immediately, I left the house because I could not take being there one more second.  I came back to my folks house where I have now been for over two weeks and where I am writing this message. The week after I left, I called her and said that I am going by the house to get some things.  She said that she changed the bolt lock on our front door (!) but would leave the bottom lock open.  Note that I did not threaten her at all during this time.  Anyway, I saw obvious evidence that her ‘friend’ had already been over (cigarette butts in the trash can, a leftover screwdriver from changing the lock, etc.).  I went into a rage and called her at work, calling her all types of dirty things.  She said "it is over between us!!".  I then cried and left the house. The next five days were living hell – I could not sleep, not function, barely even breathe.  Now I have been doing a bit better with the help of some medication and a few helpful books.  Not to mention some resources such as this that I have found on the Internet. What happened to my wife?!?  Is she going nuts or what!  I don’t understand this behavior.  The weekend before this happened she told me out of the blue that she loves me, we went to the movies, had fun, etc.  She had even told her sister than weekend (not in front of me, but her sister told me) that WE were going to go to Cozumel in the winter – wtf!!!  Is she having some kind of mid-life crisis at age 27?  What can she see in a 42 yr old man who has already been through the ringer himself.  She is making such a huge mistake, but there is nothing I can do. She said that I could never change and she is "just unhappy".  She also says that she was depressed because of ME!  Sure, I probably did start to neglect her after being together for awhile, but I could have learned to overcome that. I thought that was the whole purpose of the therapy. Any advice or comments on this story would be appreciated!  I am going nuts!! Anyone been through a similar situation?? Thanks in advance! -Alan

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first and foremost you need to keep your composure.  she is doing some terrible things, i realize that. but you have to understand…how she feels is how she feels. it has nothing to do with you.and frankly she probably doesn’t care how you feel. you may decide that her behavoir is unacceptable and wash your hands of it. that is certainly your right. but it won’t solve the problem.  take yourself away from  it as much as possible so you don’t react emotionally. and then decide what your course of action is. if you decide to sort thru this then the first place to start is with what you know. she says she is depressed. is that a  real condition or an excuse?  from the sounds of the story her depression is real. that makes it a treated medical condition. also look consideratly at her backgound…her family, friends, her past behavoir. do you see things that you didn’t look at closely to in the past. she may have some background noise that drives her to behave this way. when my marraige unraveled i looked at the things that took place in my wife’s life that i ignored because she never indicated that the bothered her.   for example.. .  her parents divoreced shortly after we wed.  but they got back together and have not remarried. so her folks a basically shacking up. strange behavoir to me. but my wife has never commented on it. i know that there is a denial system at work. and if i follow from there then i can uncover all sorts of thing in her background that would cause most people grief or anger or pain. my wife never let on. except she basically did the same thing as yours. unfortuantely i lost my cool and patience. i also thought be being hard ass i could get her attenion. that didn’t work.  if i were to do it over again i would definately find a way to remove myself emtionally from the situation and be alot more objective. ultimately i didn’t get what i wanted. i have a pretty good idea that she didn’t get what she wanted either. the moral is …look at your wife closely…if there are these things or others and you can find a way to mange them…then her current behavoir is something that you can live with in the long run.

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Question:

"The Sense of Being Stared At:  And Other Aspects of the Extended Mind," by Rupert Sheldrake (also author of "Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home"). Sheldrake is a trained biologist who explores the very interesting phenomena of telepathy and premonitions.  He garners considerable scientific as well as anecdotal accounts of the "web of interconnectedness" that seems to extend beyond the known senses;  though, indeed, some of this phenomena is supported by current reliable scientific verifiability.   A very good read.                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The Sense of Being Stared At:  And Other Aspects of the Extended Mind," by Rupert Sheldrake (also author of "Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home"). Sheldrake is a trained biologist who explores the very interesting phenomena of telepathy and premonitions.  He garners considerable scientific as well as anecdotal accounts of the "web of interconnectedness" that seems to extend beyond the known senses;  though, indeed, some of this phenomena is supported by current reliable scientific verifiability. A very good read. noted, i have often thought we have a ’sixth’ sense.

1 in 25,000 people  have synesthesia, where reality is perceived partially or even totally via a non-differentatied "sense", therefore a sixth sense. http://www.rense.com/ufo6/med.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sammi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1 in 25,000 people  have synesthesia, where reality is perceived partially or even totally via a non-differentatied "sense", therefore a sixth sense. http://www.rense.com/ufo6/med.htm seeing music is easy, what is difficult is to hold the image until you can get it out, that’s practixcally impossible but you can get a sense of it in colours. i wouldn’t say every sound has a particular colour but more that sounds can evoke visuals -you can practically see music in a variet yof shapes, ie triangles, squares, blobs etc, all differnt colours according to tones and they change or flow with the beat. sometimes you get a picture that captures that fluidity a little how it all changes from one shape/colour to another. www.sende.freeserve.co.uk/chaos.html like all those little triangles are notes. choas is interesting anyway http://www-chaos.umd.edu/ sammi I checked out your picture. It is very,  very good. So good it caused me feelings of anxiety and forboding  just looking at it… I HATE chaos. I like order. . I did not like looking at the picture at all,  even if I can appreciate it artistically..

Wow.  Neat pictures.  I quite enjoy the chaos inspired art.  I can relate to it.  It’s like a self-portrait of my mind.  When I was young, I had a folder that I filled with emotions.   Sometimes I still feel the need to draw my feelings so other people can understand me.  I write poetry, but words do not always convey the frustration or heartache properly. Example, I obsess over VanGogh artwork.  My friends and family cannot understand why such loud colors and bold strokes can appeal to me.  His underlying fears and pains fill each brushstroke with so much emotion, I feel like I have just read his diary.  Maybe it’s his madness/epilepsy, I don’t know, but wild art has always thrilled me. alene thatweirdgirl.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1 in 25,000 people  have synesthesia, where reality is perceived partially or even totally via a non-differentatied "sense", therefore a sixth sense. http://www.rense.com/ufo6/med.htm seeing music is easy, what is difficult is to hold the image until you can get it out, that’s practixcally impossible but you can get a sense of it in colours. i wouldn’t say every sound has a particular colour but more that sounds can evoke visuals -you can practically see music in a variet yof shapes, ie triangles, squares, blobs etc, all differnt colours according to tones and they change or flow with the beat.

You can do this.  It’s not common. sometimes you get a picture that captures that fluidity a little how it all changes from one shape/colour to another. www.sende.freeserve.co.uk/chaos.html like all those little triangles are notes. choas is interesting anyway http://www-chaos.umd.edu/ sammi

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you feel the music as well? the thing is, there is no chaos in the picture, it is composed of mathematical funtions from beginning to end, what we percieve as chaos is nothing other than complexity, it appears chaotic because we cannot see the pattern or because there are so many patterns, but chaos is composed of patterns and yes, that can be overwhelming. once you take it apart though, begin to percive the order, it becomes less so. i’m not sure what you mean by ‘feeling music’ i don’t think i feel music any differnt than anyone else, except that i am usually a clumsy person but not when i dance. see  and hear and feel words on a page? . again, i’m not sure what you mean, if you mean you can immerse your self in a story, then yes. Not very pleasant feelings,  when it’s the words in NG postings you feeling.??? sticks and stones linda.

NO! I was not  referring to that. i was asking something different.. By not understanding…what I was asking,  you answered. . :.(((( . .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sammi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do you feel the music as well? the thing is, there is no chaos in the picture, it is composed of mathematical funtions from beginning to end, what we percieve as chaos is nothing other than complexity, it appears chaotic because we cannot see the pattern or because there are so many patterns, but chaos is composed of patterns and yes, that can be overwhelming. once you take it apart though, begin to percive the order, it becomes less so. i’m not sure what you mean by ‘feeling music’ i don’t think i feel music any differnt than anyone else, except that i am usually a clumsy person but not when i dance. see  and hear and feel words on a page? . again, i’m not sure what you mean, if you mean you can immerse your self in a story, then yes. Not very pleasant feelings,  when it’s the words in NG postings you feeling.??? sticks and stones linda. NO! I was not  referring to that. i was asking something different.. By not understanding…what I was asking,  you answered. . :.((((

yeah.,she doesnt understand so clearly doesnt experience it – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -. .. sammi

__ "Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law." – Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens issuing a blistering dissent to the partisan 5-4 ruling that effectively hands the Presidency over to Dubya and his shadowy puppetmasters. http://www.schizoaffective.org/

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NO! I was not  referring to that. i was asking something different.. By not understanding…what I was asking,  you answered. . :.(((( cor, failed the test without even knowing i was sitting one

You didn’t fail any test.  You just misunderstood my comment about unpleasant feelings one has upon reading NG postings. i am sorry linda, i don’t understand, not the way you explain it, maybe you could explain it differntly ?

You brought up the fact some people have a sixth sense. I agreed,   noting synthesiasists do have a sixth senses because their senses do not differentiate after birth. Woudn’t synthesiaist receive NG postings via undifferentiated senses..too. Are words in a NG post ever just words when received  by a synthesiast with undifferentiated senses? Words posted may be comforting and soothing,  obscuring,  or they may assault one’s senses,  be biting and a slap on the wrist,  or a slap in the face. The posts posted to NG all aflame,  are often quite assaultive,  biting, and a slap in the face,  so posts on such a NG would be evoking unpleasant feelings in a synthesethist who feels,  and hears words,  while seeing them, so they actually feel the sensation felt by a slap in the face. Then there is the question of what posters are conveying by ther posts,  not by the words themselves literally or figuratively,  but holistically via all their senses? The "vibes"  each poster sends out,   that people with undifferentiated senses are supersensitive to. . wouldn’t a creepy feeling overwhelms a readere with synthesia,  upon opening a post posted by a poster who gives off "vibes" of a creep? . would a syntheist reader sense or recieve ‘vibes" of danger from posts posted by the sadistic, blackhearted or psychopathic? Doesn’t an author reveal lots about who they are by what they create,  same as an artist? Non verbal cues,  only syntheists might perceive? Want to bet synthesiasts have to KILLFILE more than other posters? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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yes, but what do you think is bad art, art that revolts or art that is trite ? personally i go for the latter, trite art is an oxymoron, if its trite its not art.

There is also immoral art.  Two of the best movies in the world are off-limits to young children — "The Triumph of the Will" and "The Birth of a Nation." E. P.

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Art can thrill me,  incite anxiety,  or  revolt me,  cause me to feel the sense of loss the artist was feeling  or their anger,  or fear, or hate or love,  even danger,  .when its  good art. It gives me a headache   if its bad art! yes, but what do you think is bad art, art that revolts or art that is trite ?

they are not mutually exclusive…revolting art can be trite, too. personally i go for the latter, trite art is an oxymoron, if its trite its not art.

but what is trite is in the eye of the beholde,  no? I have seen (and in some cases purchased)  valuble pieces of art at US country and estate auctions, the florida keys,   paris,  etc.    for $nothing,  because  onlookers,  bidders coulndt "experience"   their value, as their experience of art rendered them "trite"  when there was nothing trite bout what they "saw" as trite.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow.  Neat pictures.  I quite enjoy the chaos inspired art.  I can relate to it.  It’s like a self-portrait of my mind.  When I was young, I had a folder that I filled with emotions.   Sometimes I still feel the need to draw my feelings so other people can understand me.  I write poetry, but words do not always convey the frustration or heartache properly. in peorty its what you leave unsaid that makes the message i think. i took a couple of modules in english lit, 20th century lit and 20th century poetry and got to particulry like larkin, ts. eliot, lawrence and browning Example, I obsess over VanGogh artwork.  My friends and family cannot understand why such loud colors and bold strokes can appeal to me. His underlying fears and pains fill each brushstroke with so much emotion, I feel like I have just read his diary.  Maybe it’s his madness/epilepsy, I don’t know, but wild art has always thrilled me. the year before last i was lucky enough to get to visit a couple of the large galleries. we visited the tate and the natinoal galleries in london and the national gallery in edinbrough, it is strange to see the picures you know so well in prints, in real, some are surpisingly huge and some very tiny what doesn’t really come across well in prints is, for instance, the luminescence of some of the paints, they seem very much more alive in real. as to madness and creativity, worryingly so, they seem often to go hand in hand last night we watched a documentary about the goons, i don’t know if you know them, a british comody act ? anyway one of the goons is spike milligan, a man plagued with bi-polar depression but more interestingly, i thought they all displayed adhd. sammi

I have never spent more than a few days in any city anywhere in the world, withoug   feeling compelled to spend a day or two or however loong it takes…to experience what ther might be to expeirience in their art musuems and local galleries.. I am well traveled,  so there are few major museusm I havent seen…Even been to Pisa and Florence!!! I travel less now my son is older,  and doesnt want to go places like that with MOM anymore. They bring all these exhibits from all over the world to vegas,  but I don’t LIKE going to such exhibits,  because they don’t know how to SHOW art…her in VEGAS!!!! I am deeply moved by the local art in VEGAS,  though. Vegas is one of the major "Sin"  Capitals of the world,  if not a modern day Sodom. The local art reflects that fact. I have seen a lot of artists work,  the local art in many places the world over,  but NEVER have I seen a collection of art  having on whole the darkest hues….that the local art of vegas has.  No matter if the painting is supposed to be of the glittz,  vegas is normally known for,  the background hues are still all so ominous…so as to include within the art, capture the sordid  undebelly accompanyses all that "glitz" Seen some very moving pieces of local art in Vegas…artists who are the parents,  sisters and brothers of "fallen" family members capture the "scene" well… .sometimes via starkness,  always poignant,  biting..and moving.  . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You didn’t fail any test. o goody  You just misunderstood my comment about unpleasant feelings one has  upon reading NG postings. or didn’t take it seriously enough, yes. You brought up the fact some people have a sixth sense. i mentioned i often think one has one, though i haven’t as such defined for myself what i mean by that really, it is more a fleeting, a sporadically reoccurring, thought, one wonders. there is so much we don’t know, so i think it lies within the realms of the possible, feasible. I agreed,   noting synthesiasists do have a sixth senses because their senses do not differentiate after birth. i haven’t really thought of synthenesia as being a sixth sense, not because because it may not be, but simply because it hadn’t occured to me to classify it as such, i would have classified it as an ability, or disabilty depending upon how it affects the individual, but then again, seeing, hearing etc are also abilities.

I consider synthesia a sixth sense  because you’re perception of  reality is holistic,  via all the sense simultaneously…therfore perception is via a Dimension UNPERCEIVED by those with differentiated senses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woudn’t synthesiaist receive NG postings via undifferentiated senses..too. if it is something you have no control over, possibly, i think. is it (the feeeling) similar to the autist who is overwhelemd by visual sensory input ? we once arraged a talk with donna williams, i think it was, we had everything, we thought, well arranged, taking all miss williams needs into account (there had been a long list but had to change the rooms after all because the carpet was patterned. The posts posted to NG all aflame,  are often quite assaultive, biting, and a slap in the face,  so posts on such a NG would be evoking unpleasant feelings in a synthesethist who feels,  and hears words,  while seeing them, so they actually feel the sensation felt by a slap in the face. but then isn’t it unwise to put yourself into a position where such happens ? i find i ‘need’ or thrive on visual stimulation but dislike noise, crowds and a variety of other things, so i avoid them when i can. because you can’t control the envronment and you can’t adapt yourself to the environemnt then that only leaves that you avoid the situations that cause you distress, or ?

I have read a great many synthesiasts become reclusive.  As reclusive or monastic lifestyle would be the only way for them to avoid distress. Then there is the question of what posters are conveying by ther posts,  not by the words themselves literally or figuratively,  but holistically via all their senses? how do you arm yourself against the ill wishes of others ? i don’t know. if you believed you have an aura you could make it an invincible one, like a shield i suppose ?

Faith??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "vibes"  each poster sends out,   that people with undifferentiated senses are supersensitive to. . wouldn’t a creepy feeling overwhelms a readere with synthesia,  upon opening a post posted by a poster who gives off "vibes" of a creep? . yes it would, and its also very hard to ignore them as well even though you know it will distress you. would a syntheist reader sense or recieve ‘vibes" of danger from posts posted by the sadistic, blackhearted or psychopathic? yes, you would feel the threat or threatened. Doesn’t an author reveal lots about who they are by what they create, same as an artist? yes, there is an area in psychology that concentrates exactly on that called discourse analysis.

Which I presume is practiced by idiots who studied ABOUT it,  rather than persons whose knowledge arises from an acquaintance with perception via a holistic or added "dimension"???. Non verbal cues,  only syntheists might perceive? are sensitive to, yes. Want to bet synthesiasts have to KILLFILE more than other posters? yes but exactly that is difficult, methinks.

Might depend upon their level of awareness,  might it not? Not everyone cares to be a "voyeur" of that which people exhibit unawares, no? .   sammi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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yes, but what do you think is bad art, art that revolts or art that is trite ? personally i go for the latter, trite art is an oxymoron, if its trite its not art. There is also immoral art.  Two of the best movies in the world are off-limits to young children — "The Triumph of the Will" and "The Birth of a Nation." can one rent these films, i have seen neither.

While I’m sure one can in some localities, they’re not likely to be on the shelf at Blockbuster.  Check your library and see if they have these.  If not, and if it’s not financial hardship for you, donate them.  Part of the proceeds from Triumph of the Will go to the Holocaust Museum by the way. Both of these are fascinating because they present the most appalling subject matter so superbly well that they give it legitimacy. But they are different in kind.  Birth of a Nation was a superbly made film giving a flawed view of a certain era of history.  Triumph of the Will wasn’t about a dark era in history, it was _part_ of that dark era. FWIW, I was quite surprised to find that the director of that film has a Web site <http://www.leni-riefenstahl.de/ and recently celebrated her 100th birthday.  Remarkable woman. sammi

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

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yes, but what do you think is bad art, art that revolts or art that is trite ? they are not mutually exclusive…revolting art can be trite, too. but then is it art ? i dunno, i think not.

I was talking about what sometimes "passes" for art… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – personally i go for the latter, trite art is an oxymoron, if its trite its not art. but what is trite is in the eye of the beholde,  no? well that’s true too, unfortunately but i think you know what i mean perhaps, my mother had a simply awful oil painting, huge it was, of the alps, relatively well painted but, essentially, trite. but she liked it. I have seen (and in some cases purchased)  valuble pieces of art at US country and estate auctions, the florida keys,   paris,  etc.    for $nothing,  because  onlookers,  bidders coulndt "experience"   their value, as their experience of art rendered them "trite"  when there was nothing trite bout what they "saw" as trite. but they like, i would think, really trite atr, no ?

There are all kinds interested in art, for all kinds of reasons. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sammi

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I have read a great many synthesiasts become reclusive.  As reclusive or monastic lifestyle would be the only way for them to avoid distress. it is often so, even i live relatively reclusive but i think that has more to do with the fact that i find relationships/friendships hard work and, for a long time, i was embarrassed about the state of my house, the messiness, the ‘naughty’ children, etc.

I keep the world at arm’s length since my son’s diagnosis with TS Orioginally,    so his  home could be a safeplace where he could tic without any questions or comments. Now he is asymptomless,  I don’t want any psychodrama in my home,  that might stress my son,  and incte his TS to manifest again…so I still discourage.visits by all but my closest friends,  who respect my HOUSE RULES bout no noise or psychodrama,   without question. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then there is the question of what posters are conveying by ther posts,  not by the words themselves literally or figuratively,  but holistically via all their senses? how do you arm yourself against the ill wishes of others ? i don’t know. if you believed you have an aura you could make it an invincible one, like a shield i suppose ? Faith??? well you have said in other posts that you do ignore the virulent and abusive posts, really, the addage ’sticks and stones’ is not so misguided. i know it doesn’t actually stop you from being overwhelmed (or i assume, really i don’t know) but if you could mentally project a shield around yourself saying that you won’t let such affect you, would that help ? or am i misunderstanding again ?

I think the main defense might be creating a mental shield,  IOW,   TUNING out the world. Cease attending. Becoming NON-ATTENTIVE Which is why I cannot understand how psychostimulants which increase one’s attentiveness,  are going to help one,  if the core problem is HYPERREACTIVITY to stimuli…so much so  you are overwhelmed,  and TUNE OUT in the first place. . I do not want my attentiveness to the world increased,  if my hyperreactivity is NOT decreased FIRST. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Doesn’t an author reveal lots about who they are by what they create, same as an artist? yes, there is an area in psychology that concentrates exactly on that called discourse analysis. Which I presume is practiced by idiots who studied ABOUT it,  rather than persons whose knowledge arises from an acquaintance with perception via a holistic or added "dimension"???. i wouldn’t know that, i would think its a matter of interest to people who are interested in people and interested in how people define themselves and their reality in language and through language. Want to bet synthesiasts have to KILLFILE more than other posters? yes but exactly that is difficult, methinks. Might depend upon their level of awareness,  might it not? yes. Not everyone cares to be a "voyeur" of that which people exhibit unawares, no? agreed. sammi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read a great many synthesiasts become reclusive.  As reclusive or monastic lifestyle would be the only way for them to avoid distress. it is often so, even i live relatively reclusive but i think that has more to do with the fact that i find relationships/friendships hard work and, for a long time, i was embarrassed about the state of my house, the messiness, the ‘naughty’ children, etc. I keep the world at arm’s length since my son’s diagnosis with TS Orioginally,    so his  home could be a safeplace where he could tic without any questions or comments. Now he is asymptomless,  I don’t want any psychodrama in my home,  that might stress my son,  and incte his TS to manifest again…so I still discourage.visits by all but my closest friends,  who respect my HOUSE RULES bout no noise or psychodrama,   without question. Then there is the question of what posters are conveying by ther posts,  not by the words themselves literally or figuratively,  but holistically via all their senses? how do you arm yourself against the ill wishes of others ? i don’t know. if you believed you have an aura you could make it an invincible one, like a shield i suppose ? Faith??? well you have said in other posts that you do ignore the virulent and abusive posts, really, the addage ’sticks and stones’ is not so misguided. i know it doesn’t actually stop you from being overwhelmed (or i assume, really i don’t know) but if you could mentally project a shield around yourself saying that you won’t let such affect you, would that help ? or am i misunderstanding again ? I think the main defense might be creating a mental shield,  IOW,   TUNING out the world. Cease attending. Becoming NON-ATTENTIVE Which is why I cannot understand how psychostimulants which increase one’s attentiveness,  are going to help one,  if the core problem is HYPERREACTIVITY to stimuli…so much so  you are overwhelmed,  and TUNE OUT in the first place. . I do not want my attentiveness to the world increased,  if my hyperreactivity is NOT decreased FIRST. <snip Doesn’t an author reveal lots about who they are by what they create, same as an artist? yes, there is an area in psychology that concentrates exactly on that called discourse analysis. Which I presume is practiced by idiots who studied ABOUT it,  rather than persons whose knowledge arises from an acquaintance with perception via a holistic or added "dimension"???. i wouldn’t know that, i would think its a matter of interest to people who are interested in people and interested in how people define themselves and their reality in language and through language.

Conversational analysis has a practical side in these groups http://www.ucalgary.ca/~northcot/conversation.html Speaker’s Rights and Possible Completions The speaker’s control over the next turn: he/she can select who will speak next by naming them or alluding to them she/he can constrain the next turn by shaping the topic but not actually naming the next speaker neither of the above: leaving others to select the next speaker and/or topic as they please (1) overrides (2), which overrides (3) (Possible) completion points: the speaker appears to finish her/his turn by either selecting the next speaker or shaping the direction of the discourse or neither. the speaker (being vulnerable) creates what could commonly be understood as a possible completion to her/his turn, thereby allowing another participant to legitimately intervene the speaker is not vulnerable (i.e., does not provide a possible completion point) but another participant intervenes anyway, providing a possible completion for the earlier speaker’s turn Linear vs. Non-Linear Sequences Linear chains include adjecency pairs and tripartrite sequences. Adjacency Pairs. The first member of the pair projects that the second should be produced next. The second can be nontrivially absent; misaligned or in error; and place normative requirement on speakers. "Seconds" — the second part of the pair — not only accomplish the relevant next action, but also display a public understanding of the prior utterance in a continuous updating of intersubjective understandings (or by which failures can be corrected). Tripartrite Sequences. Like adjecency pairs, but with a third element. Non-Linear Sequences can be divided into side sequences and skip-connecting: Side sequences: Repair. Trying to reach a consensus on what is being said, or how it is intended interpersonally. Conflict. Clear disagreement with little or no attempt to re-establish consensus — and therefore the forward linear flow. Critique. Critical examination of the ground of belief/truth about something being said in a certain way. Skip-Connecting: Two or more would-be current speakers each interpret or ignore what the other is saying in terms of their own topic agenda until one establishes dominance. __ "Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law." – Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens issuing a blistering dissent to the partisan 5-4 ruling that effectively hands the Presidency over to Dubya and his shadowy puppetmasters. http://www.schizoaffective.org/

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yes, but what do you think is bad art, art that revolts or art that is trite ? personally i go for the latter, trite art is an oxymoron, if its trite its not art. There is also immoral art.  Two of the best movies in the world are off-limits to young children — "The Triumph of the Will" and "The Birth of a Nation." can one rent these films, i have seen neither.

yes..the triumph of the wiill is a "must" sammi

__ "Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law." – Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens issuing a blistering dissent to the partisan 5-4 ruling that effectively hands the Presidency over to Dubya and his shadowy puppetmasters. http://www.schizoaffective.org/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read a great many synthesiasts become reclusive.  As reclusive or monastic lifestyle would be the only way for them to avoid distress. it is often so, even i live relatively reclusive but i think that has more to do with the fact that i find relationships/friendships hard work and, for a long time, i was embarrassed about the state of my house, the messiness, the ‘naughty’ children, etc. I keep the world at arm’s length since my son’s diagnosis with TS Orioginally,    so his  home could be a safeplace where he could tic without any questions or comments. Now he is asymptomless,  I don’t want any psychodrama in my home,  that might stress my son,  and incte his TS to manifest again…so I still discourage.visits by all but my closest friends,  who respect my HOUSE RULES bout no noise or psychodrama,   without question. Then there is the question of what posters are conveying by ther posts,  not by the words themselves literally or figuratively,  but holistically via all their senses? how do you arm yourself against the ill wishes of others ? i don’t know. if you believed you have an aura you could make it an invincible one, like a shield i suppose ? Faith??? well you have said in other posts that you do ignore the virulent and abusive posts, really, the addage ’sticks and stones’ is not so misguided. i know it doesn’t actually stop you from being overwhelmed (or i assume, really i don’t know) but if you could mentally project a shield around yourself saying that you won’t let such affect you, would that help ? or am i misunderstanding again ? I think the main defense might be creating a mental shield,  IOW,   TUNING out the world. Cease attending. Becoming NON-ATTENTIVE Which is why I cannot understand how psychostimulants which increase one’s attentiveness,  are going to help one,  if the core problem is HYPERREACTIVITY to stimuli…so much so  you are overwhelmed,  and TUNE OUT in the first place. . I do not want my attentiveness to the world increased,  if my hyperreactivity is NOT decreased FIRST.

I do not listen to the BS posted by ASAD veterans,  because   everytime i have sought to discuss what psychostimulants do,  they  emphasise how the psychostimulants increase alertness,  and ability to attend and focus. It is my belief that is what stimulants do for people without ADD/ADHd! increasing ones alertness to a world when you are hyperreactive to stimuli, isn’t exactly something the ADD/ADHD would want.. The ADD/ADHD  wants the opposite,   to be made less hyperreactive,  so one doesnt have to tune out,   altogether,  so one CAN attend. Which is what I believe stimulants may in reality do…for people who really have ADD/ADHD. I was reading a list of symptoms of ADD/ADHD where ATYPICAL response to medications was listed. Something I know all about from my experiences with SSRI’s.. Sooooooo,  the only way I can figure,  stimulants help those with ADD/ADHD, is the exact opposite   of increasing their alertness. That,  although neurotypicals alertness will increase on psychostimulants, where someone has ADD/ADHD,  they will have an atypical response,   the exact opposite of increase in alertness,  a DECREASE in alertness to incoming stimuli. And,  by decreasing they hypersensistivity,  and hyperreactiveness and allertness to incoming stimuli,   makes the ADD/ADH  abole to stop tuning out,   and start attending. But that is a very big,  IF…for someone whose had paradoxical responses to meds,  before.

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 we are in agreement

That happens sometimes.  <g . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sammi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do not listen to the BS posted by ASAD veterans,  because everytime i have sought to discuss what psychostimulants do,  they  emphasise how the psychostimulants increase alertness,  and ability to attend and focus. It is my belief that is what stimulants do for people without ADD/ADHd! increasing ones alertness to a world when you are hyperreactive to stimuli, isn’t exactly something the ADD/ADHD would want.. well as i said in the last post i don’t really know as i haven’t treid them but my understanding is more that they give you back the control over what you can focuss on or not rather than increasing the level of focuss and hyperactivity.

If a drug puts the breakers on your hyperreactivity to anything and everything,  you regain control. You are not in control  if you are reacting  to every trivial little thing, and the most trivial things can unravel you. To be in control of yourself  versus the enviorment,  you must be  able to maintain your equilibirium and SERENITY no matter whats going on about bout you. I can in a crisis,  but not generally. Being vulnerable to ALL stimuli, makes you easily distracted so you can never focus,  attend, concentrate,  unless hyperfocusing,  such as in a crisis. An interesting discussion a friend and I were having…is how tuned out are you,  and are you tuned out at alll levels,  or just the at the most conscious ones? I found it an interesting question,  because  I have tuned out, distracted, preoccupied,    YET,  I score very very  high on IQ and achievement tests, which always left me wondering,  how do I know the things I ‘know" when so tuned out,  never attending.???. The ADD/ADHD  wants the opposite,   to be made less hyperreactive,  so one doesnt have to tune out,   altogether,  so one CAN attend. this is what i understand ritalin and the like are supposed to do. some drugs work conversly to how you would expect them to.

 I recntly saw a list of symptoms of ADD/ADHD  which included  ATYPICAL response to medication as an actual bonafide symptom of ADD/ADHD. (Interestingly,  thyroid problem was also on that list.) The typical response to a stimulant would be increase alertness,  stimulate CNS,  etc. Which is what I have been concerned about them doing to me…possibly causing em TS,  or whatever,    which I can ill afford. But,  IF I have ADD/ADHD…and have an atypical response to medications, then perhaps…a psychostimulant will not stimulate my CNS,  and cause me TS (my son having,  makes me a candidate), Thats the only way,  I can conceive the psychostimulants could help ADD/ADHD,  if their mechanism of action in ADD/ADHD’’s were atypical,  and rather than stimulate,  they quiet the CNS,  so the senses are not so hyper reactive.. Then people wouldnt tune out,  and could be attentive. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is what I believe stimulants may in reality do…for people who really have ADD/ADHD. yes, that’s my understanding of it too. But that is a very big,  IF…for someone whose had paradoxical responses to meds,  before. through the quite limited exepreience i’ve had of medication, i’ve found the same, ssri’s did nothing for me but dutonin which isn’t an ssri worked very well to the point where i felt i didn’t need it after a couple of months. i’m prepared to try now whatever medication my psychiatrist is willing to prescribe bacuse it may well be that something will help even if its not marketed precisely for adhd, it doesn’t really matter if it helps, does it ?

I become  very cautious after some bad experiences  with SSRI’s. I didn’t know what SSRI’s were expected to do,  versuse what they wren’t supposed to be doing,  so took them on and off for years,  unaware I was have  paradoxical responses I had, so to be able to tell my doctors.  .. If I ever take anything for ADD/ADHD,  I going to know exactly what it is and isn’t supposed to do,  .so I know soon as it starts doing anything its not supposed to…to inform doctor…etc!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sammi

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Doug… You sound like a pretty angry guy.  Yes, a lot of us on this group are sad people, but that’s something that kind of goes along with the name of the group… soc.support.depression.manic.  This is a support group generally for people *with* the illness.  There are people who are spouses/parents/etc. of bipolars who post, but they usually want honest opinions from us based on our own experience.  If you want to speak more specifically to other people who are in a supportive role to those with the illness, you may find it more useful to join the mailing list BPSO (bipolar significant others or something like that?) — it’s specifically for supporters, and *not* for those with the illness.   As far as "sitting and doing nothing"… sometimes quiet support is the best thing.  Making your opinion known, and letting things go… sometimes this is the only choice that makes sense.  Until I decided that meds were right for me (and I write meds because if I wrote medications out in full every time I needed to I’d end up with carpal tunnel syndrom in a week), until I decided that suicide was not a viable option, until I decided that I was worth enough to get treatment — nothing could have made me do any of these things.  Compliance with meds, treatment, everything would be impossible if someone tried to force them on me.  My spouse knows that (at least with my personality) the harder he might push, the less likely I am to think it out for myself, and compliance is almost impossible as far as I am concerned if I don’t believe in it myself.  Sitting and waiting is not always the easiest route, nor is it always the appropriate path, but sometimes it *is*.  I don’t think anyone meant to say that you should always take this approach — just that it *is* sometimes the only approach. My spouse and I have a written arrangement (a la the Depression & Manic Depression Workbook), which basically states that if I get too manic, or generally unable to look after myself, that he has the right to get me to a doctor.  The fact that this is a mutual agreement, something that I know I’ve agreed to when in a reasonable state of mind, helps me agree to things when I’m not so reasonable.  He doesn’t have to feel like a dictator, and I don’t have to feel that he’s being one.  Perhaps this is something you could look at with your fiancee. Something that I really think you are going to have to get used to is the idea that no matter what you want or push your fiancee for, she’s still unwell.  Like it or not, suicide is something that can happen, whether you’re mentally ill or not.  Nothing you do can change the fact that if someone wants to do it, they’re going to.  Same thing with getting "better"… people have to be allowed to decide.  It doesn’t mean you have to sit back and watch with no involvement.  It just means that you can’t expect someone to move at the speed you expect them to towards wellness.  Or attain a standard of wellness that isn’t realistic for them.  You have to decide what you want, what you expect, and if someone can’t attain that at the rate you like, then maybe you are the one with a problem to work out.   As far as why a depressed/manic depressive person avoids treatment, avoids help… well, there’s honestly as many reasons for that as there are people.  I can only speak for myself.  Some of the reasons I had for avoiding treatment were: – the fear that medication might change me, make me not the person I was, but some kind of zombie, or robot, or just non-funny non-skeptical not-caring-about-art-and-literature kind of creature. – really low self-esteem.  I was used to a lifetime of people telling me bad things about myself, so I was kind of expecting a ridicule, a further lessening of what little respect I had for myself by a group of people (doctors).  It didn’t occur to me that my diagnosis might be met with a lot of respect — most of the health care professionals I’ve seen are amazed that I’ve made it this far and this long with the problems I’ve had to face throughout the years.  I just didn’t expect it at all. – simple lack of knowledge.  I knew there was something funny about me, but I didn’t really know I was specifically ill for many years.  I just thought that everyone else lived this way, and that I should just get used to it.  After all, I had those manic phases where everything was great (up to a point…), and maybe that’s the way everyone functioned, just perhaps to a lesser degree than I did. – safety.  Living the way I did was the only thing I knew, and the concept of suicide was always there as an option if things became unbearable.  This pattern of thinking was (and still is, to a much lesser degree), the only way I knew to live.  As strange and frenetic as my life could be at times, it was still fairly predictable to me.  Just like anyone who lives a certain lifestyle in a certain way, I was afraid of change.   The only thing I can say about when to intervene for her benefit, is that you must work this out with her participation.  Decide when you both feel she needs help, make sure both your needs are known honestly and freely, then compromise, work out almost a contract that you both can live with.  Then, as I said before, you don’t have to feel like an overlord, and she doesn’t have to feel that you’re taking liberties with her freedom. Just one question:  Did you ask your fiancee before you posted her bio? I know I’d be rather pissed if someone posted mine without asking.   Anyway… I wish you the best of luck.  Again, we may be a sad lot, but it certainly doesn’t help to have someone pointing it out for us.  We live with the fact that we’re different every day of the year.  We fight with an illness and with ourselves, and survive, with varying degrees of success.  A sad lot?  I think not.  I think we’re all strong, and brave, and simply wonderful people for just getting up every day (which can be a bloody chore, take it from me).  If you can’t begin to have sympathy & understanding for those who have to fight to continue on a daily basis, then I think it says something about sadness. take care… neko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=".signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename=".signature" whittle you into kindlin’  -tw  )._.,–….,’“.              - – -             /,   _..   _  ;`._ ,.

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I’ve been with a woman for three years. She is a lovely woman, albeit she is very large (heavy, full-figured, over-weight — choose your favorite). We are planning a wedding in the beginning of May of this year. I am concerned. I have never been the type to run away from a situation because of difficulties. I actually enjoy difficult situations because I can almost always overcome them. This one has me confounded and makes my whole world seem bedeviled. Nothing works the way it should. I have told her for three years that she is beautiful. For most of that time she has told me I’m crazy, and that she IS NOT beautiful. She refuses to accept the compliment. I ask her to wear attractive dresses with low necklines, or high hems, and she refuses saying that she doesn’t look good. Whatever she wears I still tell her how beautiful I think she is. I hold her in my arms when she is upset.  I cuddle with her because she enjoys that. When she is sick, I do my best to cater to her needs. I encourage her every day to see the value in her work. But, no. Her mind is made up and she WON’T CHANGE IT. She doesn’t see value in herself at her office any more. Although downsizing has cut her hours (but not much of her responsibility), I don’t see where this should be taken personally and lowering her own self-esteem. I go through times where I don’t feel like I am worth much myself, but in a different sense. I’ve been laid off for two years, and I’ve been completing a college degree in computers. I am not bringing in any income. But I recognize the difference between self-esteem, financial worth, and desirable worth. She is letting her work situation drag her to Hell. And she’s starting to take me with her. I fight to make her happy. I have always been flexible in my life. I might have plans, but I can change them, rearrange them, cancel them, reschedule them, and make dozens of other arrangements. If she hits a bump in the road she wants to cancel the whole damned trip. I ask her for ideas on what she’d like to do for a weekend. She never can give me an answer. She feels like her house is herself. If her house isn’t clean then she isn’t clean. The house is never clean enough for her satisfaction. Therefore she never wants to do anything! She is SAFE in her house. She is SAFE in her old sweats and long "grandma" dresses. She won’t stick her neck out to save her life.  She has dressed up for me once in a blue moon, but if she doesn’t get the evening SHE was expecting, it was all for nothing. I’m not Felix Under, but I’m not Oscar Madison either. I know I’ve got to clean up my office and magazines in the living room more often. I know that I push her. I push her to get out of her rut and try new things. This weekend I found that sometimes this is puting her through Hell. I love this woman very much, but I can not live in this DEEP, VERY DEEP RUT with her. At times I feel like she is comfortable with her manic depression, and seasonal disorder. She knows what to expect, and the feelings are numbed. I want to reach out an "pet the porcupine" even if I know my fingers will bleed. I don’t understand the desire to be so protected all of the time. I’m beginning to become afraid that if I continue with the marriage, I’ll forever be casting myself in the role of nursemaid, and caretaker. Pampering her in her safe little house for the rest of our lives so she doesn’t have to go out in the nasty real world.  I *** can’t believe *** that she must be this way forever. I believe, that just like my diabetes needs work and attention for me to have a FULL, RICH LIFE, she can have a full, rich life if she works at her depression and steps out of her ruts. She is fond of telling me that she must make changes for herself. She can not change for anyone else. Sounds like a bunch of psycho-babble to me. I was raised in a family that believes that life is NOTHING BUT A SERIES OF CHANGES ONE AFTER ANOTHER. We can not expect the World to revolve around us. We MUST blend in, and adapt to it. If we do not adapt ……. we all die. That is what I see happening to her. And I can’t accept that there isn’t anything I can do to change that. I can help people understand and use the most complicated computer software available. I can help people to find and enjoy tourist attractions throughout Wisconsin. I can help people at the technical college I attend, who have given up on learning a new skill, to not only learn the skill, but also have fun doing it. Why can’t I encourage this lady to change out of her ruts? Sincerely, Doug

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What a sad lot (most of) you are.  In response to my original query posted on Mar 30, 1997 (posted under my fianc

Question:

After an unsuccessful month on Wellbutrin for anxiety, I am about to go in to see that same doctor again at the county services facility.   This morning I had a required visit to one of his social workers, who informed me that he will be dealing with my anxiety rather than the doctor.  The social worker’s advice for my severe anxiety attacks and inability to leave my house or get a job?  Get out of the house more.   I understand that drugs like Ativan, Xanax, and Klonopin were not meant to be used long term to mask the symptoms of anxiety rather than learn the source of the anxiety as well, but in such an extreme case, doesn’t it seem reasonable, if not merciful, to get a handle on things before trying to sort them out?  The doctor won’t even discuss the medical anomalies in my thyroid test results, which also could be causing the anxiety.   I wish I had my two jobs again so that I could see someone who treats anxiety, but in order to do that, I have to get over the anxiety attacks enough to get out of my house to get another job, but in order to do that, I have to control the anxiety, but in order to do that, I have to get a job in order to see a doctor who will acknowledge the anxiety, ad nauseum. My question is:  do I ever reach the cheese? Jennifer R.

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After an unsuccessful month on Wellbutrin for anxiety, I am about to go in to see that same doctor again at the county services facility.

I’m confused about Wellbutrin. Everything I’ve read says it is used for depression and not anxiety. But, I keep reading about people being switched from Paxil to Wellbutrin. And my sister’s doctor prescribed BOTH for her, saying that he’s found Wellbutrin to work well in counter-acting the sexual side effects of Paxil — except that it doesn’t seem to work for her, and I’ve found NO other source mentioning this use for Wellbutrin. <snip The doctor won’t even discuss the medical anomalies in my thyroid test results, which also could be causing the anxiety.

What kind of doctor? I’ve found that the psychiatrists will mention any anomalies they find in passing, but expect YOU to follow up with a different medical doctor. Sigh. <snip My question is:  do I ever reach the cheese?

Hah, hah, hah!! That sums everything up well! Wish I’d thought of it. Mary

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I’m confused about Wellbutrin. Everything I’ve read says it is used for depression and not anxiety. But, I keep reading about people being switched from Paxil to Wellbutrin. And my sister’s doctor prescribed BOTH for her, saying that he’s found Wellbutrin to work well in counter-acting the sexual side effects of Paxil — except that it doesn’t seem to work for her, and I’ve found NO other source mentioning this use for Wellbutrin. <snip

Paxil is an SSRI……works to beef up your serotonin. Welbutrin works to beef up your Dopamine and norepinephrine…..its known as Bupropian, it does NOT act on serotonin.  It is believed ineffective in panic disorder and is a stimulating antidepressant.  It is used primarily for Bi-polar depression and secondarily ADD or ADHD. It’s main drawback is association with seizures the same way the tricyclics do.  It also has a narrow range of safe dosage and should be taken 3X a day which can be a nuisance.  A timed release formula was expected in 1997, but I haven’t heard anything.  It also has a low rate of sedation and sexual dysfunction. I also have not found information that says it works for panic disorder. Hope this helps KC Cindy

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