Been on Tricor for a long time. I am on max dosage of 160mg plus 2000mg of Niaspan (time released Niacin) and I take 4000mg of (OTC) Fish Oil. Nothing seems to work, though I am down from 1862 to 518 on my Tris. Maybe its the last 400 that are the toughest? Sleepy Tricor has considerably lowered my tris, Sleepy, are you on that. Loretta
I don
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My niece is a distributor Lipase Digestive Enzymes. They brought down my cholestrol from 260 to 200 in two weeks, so I cut the dose. Mentioned it to my doc and he didn’t seem to mind. Take 40-6 per day to start; check cholestrol
The most natural way to fight cholesterol, is to simply stop eating foods that contain it: namely animal products.
Some people need a little help with what the body does with cholesterol. and I’d rather do it naturally than with Lipitor, etc. jacque
The most natural way to fight cholesterol, is to simply stop eating foods that contain it: namely animal products. Some people need a little help with what the body does with cholesterol. and I’d rather do it naturally than with Lipitor, etc. jacque
I’m not saying I’m against people using supplements for such purposes, I know that they will anyway. I can’t say I think they will do much good, but I respect that people who use them believe that they do, and that is their choice. But I would like to promote the idea that without some good basic lifestyle changes behind them, supplementation won’t really make us a lot healthier. Go ahead and take them if you believe in them, but it might not be a good idea to gamble on the idea that they’ll fix everything, because they won’t. I would just like to suggest that a bit more than a pill may be needed. Habib
18 Apr 01 22:15 The most natural way to fight cholesterol, is to simply stop eating foods that contain it: namely animal products.
Jacque replied: Some people need a little help with what the body does with cholesterol. and I’d rather do it naturally than with Lipitor, etc.
Doesn’t eating apples with their pectin content help eliminate cholesterol from the body???? Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.
Doesn’t eating apples with their pectin content help eliminate cholesterol from the body????
George, It might…someone else might need to answer that question. I found for myself that taking herbs which are good for the liver, plus upping my intake of the good fats(Omega 3,6,9’s), and cutting down on the animal fats made a huge difference in my cholesterol(55 points in about 3 months). I never heard about apple pectin, so I did not try that. Basically, I followed the protocol mentioned at www.liverdoctor.com. I’m going to do some reading to see what I can learn about the apple pectin, as I love apples! Jacque
. But I would like to promote the idea that without some good basic lifestyle changes behind them, supplementation won’t really make us a lot healthier.
I guess with that comment you make the assumption that people have not tried that. Some people have a genetic component that, even inc luding a healthy eating plan, keeps their cholesterol at a level that needs lowering. Jacque
But our body does produce cholesterol in exactly the proportions that are needed already,
Jacque
But our body does produce cholesterol in exactly the proportions that are needed already,
He isn’t. Welcome to the crazy world of Natural Hygeine… erf
. But I would like to promote the idea that without some good basic lifestyle changes behind them, supplementation won’t really make us a lot healthier. I guess with that comment you make the assumption that people have not tried that. Some people have a genetic component that, even including a healthy eating plan, keeps their cholesterol at a level that needs lowering. Jacque
I never made that assumption about all people. However, many people have not tried a healthy diet. I don’t fully accept your assertion about some people’s cholesterol remaining high despite a healthy diet, because I believe that virtually no one eats a healthy diet to begin with, and also because this idea has not been tested in the bodies of people who eat all raw foods, having a radically different body chemistry than anyone else. It is my assertion that a diet of nothing but raw foods causes changes to body chemistry, that no other diet in existence is able to accomplish. It causes all bodily systems to normalize, and may indeed cause cholesterol levels to normalize, even in those people you mention. Until those people are placed on a raw diet, and the effects documented and observed, you will never really know that there is anyone whose cholesterol can’t be lowered by diet. Habib
He isn’t. Welcome to the crazy world of Natural Hygeine…
WEll, my own mother eats very healthy, is a very tiny woman, and produces too much cholesterol or her body needs help getting rid of what she produces. HER system doesn’t do it right naturally! Jacque
It is my assertion that a diet of nothing but raw foods causes changes to body chemistry, that no other diet in existence is able to accomplish.
most doctors wouldn’t THINK of recommending this diet as a healthy diet. They would recommend something more like what is recommended for a diabetic,e tc. I believe it is a definition thing~~~what YOU deem healthy vs what the books(of which there are many) deem healthy. But for the "not even average american" who rarely eats animal fat, eats low or rare sugar, lots of fiber, fruits, vegetables…some of them still have difficulties with cholesterol~~~~and most who are not health fanatics would say that diet is healthy. Very few people anywhere are willing to go to the extremes you suggest. Jacque
But for the "not even average american" who rarely eats animal fat, eats low or rare sugar, lots of fiber, fruits, vegetables…some of them still have difficulties with cholesterol~~~~and most who are not health fanatics would say that diet is healthy. Very few people anywhere are willing to go to the extremes you suggest. Jacque
The question about cholesterol is old medical news. The magical medical men have moved on to the lipo-proteins, LDL, HDL, VLDL, etc. In moving on they neglected to inform you that their efforts to control cholesterol never amounted to a hill of beans as far as mortality and heart disease was concerned. Analysis of the plaque in the arteries shows the material to be a lipo-protein called lipoprotein-a and contains no cholesterol. The plaque accumulation is caused by fat. Lipo = fat. Cholesterol serves many needed functions in the body. It is a precursor for our steroids, and a chelating agent in the gut for toxic minerals. In the blood, it acts as a "blood lubricant." As the arteries narrow from the plaque, the blood cells need lubrication the same as a car engine does. Cholesterol serves this function. Higher cholesterol means narrower arteries. Cholesterol is a marker, a symptom, and not a causative agent. Clean up the diet, remove unnecessary fats, decrease the arterial closure allowing for better flow of blood, and guess what? The cholesterol goes down and stays down. Check out the Ornish Program for reversing heart disease. Dr. C. Ph.D. "Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food." Hipp.
The question about cholesterol is old medical news. The magical medical men have moved on to the lipo-proteins, LDL, HDL, VLDL, etc. In moving on they neglected to inform you that their efforts to control cholesterol never amounted to a hill of beans as far as mortality and heart disease was concerned.
Show some stats to back this up. erf PS Where’d you get your "degree" from, not Dr. C?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my assertion that a diet of nothing but raw foods causes changes to body chemistry, that no other diet in existence is able to accomplish. That I would agree on, BUT….rare is the person who eats this most doctors wouldn’t THINK of recommending this diet as a healthy diet. They would recommend something more like what is recommended for a diabetic,e tc. I believe it is a definition thing~~~what YOU deem healthy vs what the books(of which there are many) deem healthy. But for the "not even average american" who rarely eats animal fat, eats low or rare sugar, lots of fiber, fruits, vegetables…some of them still have difficulties with cholesterol~~~~and most who are not health fanatics would say that diet is healthy. Very few people anywhere are willing to go to the extremes you suggest. Jacque
I define extremes differently from most people, and I believe with good reason. Anything which strays far from human biological adaptation is extreme, and anything which stays close to it, is normal. Anything which strays far from nature is extreme, while anything which stays close to nature is normal. According to that definition, the diet I recommend is more normal than the "usual" diet, and while most people in the mainstream are living quite extreme lives. And even if this diet is extreme by some people’s definitions, that may not be a bad thing. There are many people with extremely bad health, and extreme problems may require extreme measures. That there are many doctors who would not describe this diet as healthy (without actually having direct knowledge about the topic one way or the other), is precisely why the more insight a person has, the less they listen to doctors’ advice. With the exception of emergency medicine, medical doctors could be the worst threat to your health. What you mention as the "diabetic diet" does much less for a diabetic than does a raw vegan diet. There are many diabetics who reverse their diabetes through diet. In fact, myself and my housemates have a diabetic friend who regularly comes to our weekly raw potlucks. Since he has started on the raw diet, all signs of his diabetes appear to be reversing themselves, and rather quickly at that. His doctor, luckily, is open-minded enough to actually recognize what is actually happening. I am quite certain that at some point, he will no longer need insulin shots, although that is not something that will be achieved overnight (he has already decreased them significantly, with the blessings of his doctor). His doc is fascinated with what he is doing, and thinks it’s fantastic what it’s doing for him. There are some raw food authors who have integrated information on glycemic index, but from within the context of how that information applies to a person eating a raw diet. As they say, an apple a day keeps the doctor away (thank God) – I’d add to that avocados, bananas, pears, mangoes, watermelon, kale, chard, spinach, almonds, pistachios, coconuts, etc. Health comes only from healthful living, never from a magic pill, be it nutritional, herbal or chemical drug. Habib
The question about cholesterol is old medical news. The magical medical men have moved on to the lipo-proteins, LDL, HDL, VLDL, etc. In moving on they neglected to inform you that their efforts to control cholesterol never amounted to a hill of beans as far as mortality and heart disease was concerned. Show some stats to back this up. erf PS Where’d you get your "degree" from, not Dr. C?
Show some stats to back up the MD’s. Habib – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But for the "not even average american" who rarely eats animal fat, eats low or rare sugar, lots of fiber, fruits, vegetables…some of them still have difficulties with cholesterol~~~~and most who are not health fanatics would say that diet is healthy. Very few people anywhere are willing to go to the extremes you suggest. Jacque The question about cholesterol is old medical news. The magical medical men have moved on to the lipo-proteins, LDL, HDL, VLDL, etc. In moving on they neglected to inform you that their efforts to control cholesterol never amounted to a hill of beans as far as mortality and heart disease was concerned. Analysis of the plaque in the arteries shows the material to be a lipo-protein called lipoprotein-a and contains no cholesterol. The plaque accumulation is caused by fat. Lipo = fat. Cholesterol serves many needed functions in the body. It is a precursor for our steroids, and a chelating agent in the gut for toxic minerals. In the blood, it acts as a "blood lubricant." As the arteries narrow from the plaque, the blood cells need lubrication the same as a car engine does. Cholesterol serves this function. Higher cholesterol means narrower arteries. Cholesterol is a marker, a symptom, and not a causative agent. Clean up the diet, remove unnecessary fats, decrease the arterial closure allowing for better flow of blood, and guess what? The cholesterol goes down and stays down. Check out the Ornish Program for reversing heart disease. Dr. C. Ph.D. "Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food." Hipp.
Not surprisingly you seem to be making up this claim, too. Actually there is a lot of good quality data supporting cholesterol management. Beyond the Framingham studies there are also multiple diet and pharmaceutical studies that indicate that cholesterol management is a potent factor for reducing cardiac risk. Of course, cholesterol is only one of the factors involved. The following example is the VA’s HIT trial: Rubins HB, Robins SJ, Iwane MK, Boden WE, Elam MB, Fye CL, Gordon DJ, Schaefer EJ, Schectman G, Wittes JT. Rationale and design of the Department of Veterans Affairs High-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Intervention Trial (HIT) for secondary prevention of coronary artery disease in men with low high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and desirable low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Am J Cardiol 1993 Jan 1;71(1):45-52 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
I define extremes differently from most people, and I believe with good reason. Anything which strays far from human biological adaptation is extreme, and anything which stays close to it, is normal. Anything which strays far from nature is extreme, while anything which stays close to nature is normal.
Then why has life expectancy soared with the advent of modern medicine? What evidence is there that people have ever lived longer? erf
I define extremes differently from most people, and I believe with good reason. Anything which strays far from human biological adaptation is extreme, and anything which stays close to it, is normal. Anything which strays far from nature is extreme, while anything which stays close to nature is normal. Then why has life expectancy soared with the advent of modern medicine? What evidence is there that people have ever lived longer? erf
You’re making a mistake in your logic. You assume that because life expectancy increased and that medicine came on the scene, that there is a causative link. That has never been proven to my satisfaction. I don’t believe first of all, that medicine has anything to do with increased life expectancy. Secondly, I believe that you are exaggerating things: life expectancy has not "soared." Habib
You assume that because life expectancy increased and that medicine came on the scene, that there is a causative link. That has never been proven to my satisfaction. I don’t believe first of all, that medicine has anything to do with increased life expectancy.
No Habib, the common diseases that reduced life expectancy have, well, many of them, succumbed to medical intervention. The proof is there in the form of statistics. Look at the major diseases that have been reduced or eliminated as treatment became possible. Are you saying that medical treatment for these diseases, dozens of them, just happens to coincide with some other phenomena? What is it then? Secondly, I believe that you are exaggerating things: life expectancy has not "soared."
It has increased by decades. What do you call that? erf
The question about cholesterol is old medical news. The magical medical men have moved on to the lipo-proteins, LDL, HDL, VLDL, etc. In moving on they neglected to inform you that their efforts to control cholesterol never amounted to a hill of beans as far as mortality and heart disease was concerned. Show some stats to back this up. Show some stats to back up the MD’s.
I don’t have any. That’s why I asked. erf
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The most natural way to fight cholesterol, is to simply stop eating foods that contain it: namely animal products. Habib
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I am considering trying another statin or a lower dosage. But between running and statins, I’ll stick with running.
Try pravastatin instead. This is the only statin that is not absorbed into the heart muscle.
I posted in March that I believed that a .4mg Baycol regimen prevented me from running due to knee and hip pain. I notice that the warning for Zocor lists joint pain as a possible side-effect. Physicians on the board did not believe there was a connection and my own physician did not respond to a written request. I’ve been off the drug for 2 months and run 20 miles/week with no pain. I was on Baycol for 18 months and was considering giving up running altogether. I am 56 with excellent diet, low blood pressure but my count was over 266. Baycol dropped me to about 180. I am considering trying another statin or a lower dosage. But between running and statins, I’ll stick with running. I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor? Thanks John
– Rick Grossman
HI .. I am on 20mg Pravachol and have had no joint pains or trouble running up to 45 and 50 miles a week …. generally I do 28-35 a week. John King – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted in March that I believed that a .4mg Baycol regimen prevented me from running due to knee and hip pain. I notice that the warning for Zocor lists joint pain as a possible side-effect. Physicians on the board did not believe there was a connection and my own physician did not respond to a written request. I’ve been off the drug for 2 months and run 20 miles/week with no pain. I was on Baycol for 18 months and was considering giving up running altogether. I am 56 with excellent diet, low blood pressure but my count was over 266. Baycol dropped me to about 180. I am considering trying another statin or a lower dosage. But between running and statins, I’ll stick with running. I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor? Thanks John — Rick Grossman Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" <html I posted in March that I believed that a .4mg Baycol regimen prevented me from running due to knee and hip pain. I notice that the warning for Zocor lists joint pain as a possible side-effect. Physicians on the board did not believe there was a connection and my own physician did not respond to a written request. <pI’ve been off the drug for 2 months and run 20 miles/week with no pain. I was on Baycol for 18 months and was considering giving up running altogether. I am 56 with excellent diet, low blood pressure but my count was over 266. Baycol dropped me to about 180. I am considering trying another statin or a lower dosage. But between running and statins, I’ll stick with running. <br <br <blockquote TYPE=CITEI have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was <brstill over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago <brmy cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and <brbiking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 <brmile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. <brI am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different <brstatin. <pHas anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With <brLipitor? <pThanks <pJohn</blockquote <pre– Rick Grossman </html
You have echoed my experience, exactly. I just was taken off the Lipitor and I’m already starting to feel better. I know that diet and exercise alone can’t keep the cholesterol down and I already had a heart attach 1 1/2 years ago. I’m going to have to adopt an even more spartan lifestyle and see if any of the other meds can help. — Steve Dannenbaum
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have had the same type of problems with Lipitor (another statin) I also had muscle soreness,exhausted most of the time, lower back pain everyday,and every workout seemed to get harder and harder until I couldn’t even walk a mile! I stopped taking the Lipitor and everything improved within days. It’s been 8 or 9 weeks since I quit taking it and I’m running 4 to 5 miles every other day and weight lifting on my off days and feel great. No more aches, I’m alert and energetic. Now…the high cholesterol is a real problem for me. I have genetic heart disease and feel like I’m playing with fire by not taking these drugs. I’m due to take a blood test soon and see if my dieting and exercise will be enough to lower my numbers ( fingers crossed). I’m really unsure of what needs to be done, you see I was running for over 10 years when I started to feel chest pains. After surgery the doctor told me I had genetic heart disease and the running may have saved my life. So…. the drugs available to lower my cholesterol prevents me from running, but the running kept me from having a heart attack in the first place! At least for now, I choose to run. I’m sorry this turned out so long and drawn out but there is no short answer, no magic pill. Work with your doctor and pay close attention to your body. E-mail me if you’d like to talk about it. I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor? Thanks John
I have had the same type of problems with Lipitor (another statin) I also had muscle soreness,exhausted most of the time, lower back pain everyday,and every workout seemed to get harder and harder until I couldn’t even walk a mile! I stopped taking the Lipitor and everything improved within days. It’s been 8 or 9 weeks since I quit taking it and I’m running 4 to 5 miles every other day and weight lifting on my off days and feel great. No more aches, I’m alert and energetic. Now…the high cholesterol is a real problem for me. I have genetic heart disease and feel like I’m playing with fire by not taking these drugs. I’m due to take a blood test soon and see if my dieting and exercise will be enough to lower my numbers ( fingers crossed). I’m really unsure of what needs to be done, you see I was running for over 10 years when I started to feel chest pains. After surgery the doctor told me I had genetic heart disease and the running may have saved my life. So…. the drugs available to lower my cholesterol prevents me from running, but the running kept me from having a heart attack in the first place! At least for now, I choose to run. I’m sorry this turned out so long and drawn out but there is no short answer, no magic pill. Work with your doctor and pay close attention to your body. E-mail me if you’d like to talk about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor? Thanks John
I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor? Thanks John
It seems to me I heard somewhere that LeRoy wrote in article I have been taking 10mg of zocor for the last 7 weeks but my LDL level was still over 100 (123 with a total cholesterol level of 179). Thus 5 days ago my cardiologist raised the dosage to 20mg. The impact on my running and biking has been progressively worse with yesterdays 10 mile ending with a 2 mile walk. I am sore in the morning and feel exhausted after my workouts. I am planning on calling my doctor to request a prescription for a different statin. Has anyone else out there had a similar experience? With Zocor? With Lipitor?
We had a thread on this subject start and then sort of peter out about a month ago; it’s in Google’s archives; I found it but the URL is too long to paste successfully. Try a Google/Deja Advanced Groups Search on this news group, key words statin OR lipitor OR cholesterol. Coincidentally in today’s newspapers Joe Graedon, a syndicated pharmacologist ("The People’s Pharmacy"), writes that cholesterol reducing drugs (he names Baycol, Lipitor, Pravachol, and Zocor) combined with certain other drugs (he names Lopid, niacin, and erythromycin) can cause higher risk of Rhabdomyolyis, a rare condition where muscle breaks down and kidney function may be affected. The earlier thread included several experiences involve muscle tiring or weakness, particularly in the legs. My own medications include 40mg Lipitor and 1000mg niacin, over the last three years, and apart from generalized tiredness I notice very tight calves which regular light static stretching doesn’t relieve. — Don
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You are borderline, if you are in good shape and take care of yourself,don’t worry because your cardiologist will state you won’t live longer by taking Lepitor
I’m not so sure that this is true. My cholesterol was high and I declined the Lipitor. I was putting in about 12 to 14 hours per week of training, watching my diet, etc. Six months later I had a heart attack. Boy does that screw up your training and competition. It’s probably a good idea to find a cardiologist who works with athletes; at least for a second opinion. Steve Dannenbaum
I have a slightly elevated cholesterol level and would like to share my dillema with the group. This is my third year doing this triathlon thing. I am 6 ft tall. When I started in 1998, I weighed 220 lbs. Since starting I have gradually lost many of the excess pounds and now weigh 192. Last year after a check-up, we discovered that my cholesterol level was 239. My diet was pretty good to begin with, but I increased the fiber intake, and paid closer attention to my cholesterol intake, dropping it to nothing or nearly nothing (no more than 30-50 mg/day). It was retested this week and is now 210 (fasting). On the bright side, it is more than 10% lower. On the negative, it is still above normal. The other values, triglicerides, HDL, LDL, and the cardiac risk calculation are within normal ranges, although they are all on the high side of their respective ranges. While the results are not that bad, I don’t consider them to be that good either. Has anyone in the group had similar problems? I’m considering Lipitor, does anyone have experience with that and how might it affect nutrition/training? Should I expect further reductions to take longer? I will be discussing this further with the MD. Thanks in advance for any feedback or ideas. I will share any info that may be usefull to the group. — Best wishes, Frank Before you buy.
I’ve been fighting the cholesterol thing for about five years. My total cholesterol was about 220-230 when I started — it can vary quite a bit. HDL’s were 29. I weighed about 235. Weight management and dietary restrictions helped some but I really only saw signifigant results with Lipitor. I’m currently at 40 mg/day. Total cholesterol has dropped to 140. HDL’s up to 38. I’m 43 and we decided to treat this aggressively given my family history — my father died when he was 41. I’ve been doing tri’s since 94. My times have continued to improve, so I haven’t noticed any Lipitor induced problems. Of course you’ve got to keep monitoring those liver enzymes. Congrat’s on your weight loss. Sounds like your doing everything you can. One recent research finding on heart attacks indicates that narrowing of the coronary arteries through plaque formation is not as much of a factor as the liquid/semi-solid plaque that resides within the lining of the coronary arteries. It seems that during the M.I. there is a small rupture in the artery where this cholesterol based substance fills and blocks the artery, a kind of cholesterol plug, causing the blood flow to stop to that part of the heart muscle. Liptor and the other statin drugs appear to reduce this substance. Dr. Tim Johnson of ABC fame was so struck by the findings of this particular study that he was considering taking Lipitor, and he has no risk factors. Hope this helps. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
I’m in the same boat. My cholesterol has lowered to 210, but even with 15 hours a week training and just about a zero cholesterol diet I can’t seem to get it any lower. I’d be interested in anyone’s experience using Lipitor and any negative side effects…It’s my next step and I’m considering all possibilities. Jerry
Jerry DeLuca writes: My cholesterol has lowered to 210, but even with 15 hours a week training and just about a zero cholesterol diet I can’t seem to get it any lower.
Jerry, What are your levels of HDL and LDL? Is an MD indicating that you need to be concerned? Total Cholesteral is only part of the equation. Are you under a doctor’s care? Bob Williams 55-59 Severna Park, MD
Also, some people will not have their cholesterol respond "properly" to exercise. James Hagberg did some studies with exercise and cholesterol. He found that on average there was not much change in cholesterol, but the variance was large with some people having large positive reactions (lowered cholesterol) and others actually showed a negative reaction (increased cholesterol). Hagberg and a geneticist went back and found that the nonresponders and the negative reactors had a gene turned on (or off, I cannot remember which way that gene goes) that means the body is pretty much not going to respond regardless of the exercise. Not sure if medication would alter the genetic make up.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry DeLuca writes: My cholesterol has lowered to 210, but even with 15 hours a week training and just about a zero cholesterol diet I can’t seem to get it any lower. Jerry, What are your levels of HDL and LDL? Is an MD indicating that you need to be concerned? Total Cholesteral is only part of the equation. Are you under a doctor’s care? Bob Williams 55-59 Severna Park, MD
Don’t fret. My cholesterol is significantly higher than yours 281.I do about the same volume of training as you do. There is another test that is call a c-protein. It test whether you have degeneritive vein damage.Worth spending the 30 dollars. Regarding the Lepitor, a doctor reccomended I go on it . My concern was the safety in these types of drugs. First if they are safe then why do I have to do liver fuction test every quarter. Second would it cause any adverse effects on my training. And finally, wouldn’t the Dr. prescribe the same medicine for someone who was overweight and smoke . Quite frankly, he didn’t sell me . You are borderline, if you are in good shape and take care of yourself,don’t worry because your cardiologist will state you won’t live longer by taking Lepitor. — Goodluck ,Andrew
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my mother in law was on zocor, when she took it she had short term memory problems. read the warning lable, also make shure your doctor test your liver every 3 months. I would not take zocor, I know too many people who have had bad side effects from it, diabetics and not diabetics. I am also not going to take the lipator the doctor gave me, already taking medicine that affects the liver don’t want to tox it up to much. Eric. — http://www.geocities.com/erictlewis/myhomepage.html Eric Type II diagnosed 7/2002.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
<snip Since medication side effects vary widely (and wildly!!!), there’s always that possibility that the Zocor may be elevating *your* BGs. Your best bet is to talk to your doctor and inquire about trying another drug if you suspect the Zocor is causing a problem.
I also wouldn’t advise jumping to conclusions on the basis of a single test. Cheers, John.
i think its pretty much YMMV. Ive been taking Zocor for 6 or 7 years now, as a prohibitor rather than to fix any particular problem (the doctor who put me on it puts pretty much all his type I’s onto both that and Vasotec at minimal doses). no side effects that I can tell, and my liver is not showing any problem either.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
I don’t think there is any evidence that it does. The drugs that do alter glucose tend to either look like (or actually be) stress hormones, or be relatives of sulfonyl urea drugs.
Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
Due to the elevated nature of my laboratory tests I have been advised to take 10mg. of Zocor per day at 10 p.m. I awoke after taking the drug with a blood glucose reading of 197. Question: Does Zocor elevate the blood glucose? Thanks, Maris
Maris, I take 20 mg. of Zocor at bedtime. I’ve been on it for a little over a month, and I’ve noticed no increase in my morning (fasting) BGs, which I’ve finally gotten down to between 100-110 mg/dL. But that’s just me; as they say, your mileage may vary. I couldn’t find any reference to increased BGs as a side effect when I checked the manufacturer’s info site: http://www.druginfonet.com/pi_mfr/ppi/merck/zocor/zocor.htm#c Since medication side effects vary widely (and wildly!!!), there’s always that possibility that the Zocor may be elevating *your* BGs. Your best bet is to talk to your doctor and inquire about trying another drug if you suspect the Zocor is causing a problem. Good luck! Karen Type 2 DX 9/11/02
Thanks everyone. Sounds like it’s okay, but I just have to monitor for the pain and make sure the doctor tests for liver funtionality (I must remind him for all of my tests).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side effects.
Hi, I’ve been on Zocor for about a year and no side effects. The only thing that happened to me was 20mgs was too much, brought me way down to 105 so the doctor has me split the pill in half and take 10mgs and it works great. Nora, Type 2 on oral meds.
I’ve been taking Zocor for three years. This drug immediately lowered my cholesterol levels from 250 to 150. Triglicerides are down from 200 to 108. I haven’t had any noticeable side effects as I did with Lipitor which gave me stabbing leg pains. My liver tests are good. My sister and brother-in-law are also on Zocor with good results.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side effects. I have been on it for over a year, total cholestrol down from ~240 to ~140. No visible side effects. If you start having pain, particularly in legs or arms soon after taking it, RUN don’t walk to the doc and get liver functin tests done. In any case, you will need liver function tests at least every 3 months for a year or more, less often thereafter. Most folks who tolerate it initially tolerate it well long term. Some folks do much better on one of the other statins, and nobody knows why. I would suggest that you get youd doc to tell you how to wath out for signs of liver failure, as it can happen. As always, YMMV, and, as you have undobutable read, Zocor and the other statins are powerfull drugs, not the kind where you adjust your own dose or skip visits to the doc. Speaking only for myself, Joe Durusau
I started on Pravachol but switched to zocor because it was cheaper. However after being on it a few months I started to have leg pain and switched back to Pravachol.
Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side
effects.
Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side effects.
Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side effects.
I’m taking it now, for a few months. My cholesterol is up, and if I back more on fats I’ll also be cutting way back on protein, and if I control carbs and salt and additives and etc., etc., etc. there will be nothing left to eat and I’ll starve to death…. It can interfere with liver function, so you do need to be tested while taking it. And the first few weeks my legs hurt at night, somewhat like cramps but not relieved by potassium: apparently some muscular pain is not unusally when starting it.
Anyone have any good or bad things to say about Zocor? My doctor wants to prescribe it for me, but I am concerned about the more serious side effects.
I have been on it for over a year, total cholestrol down from ~240 to ~140. No visible side effects. If you start having pain, particularly in legs or arms soon after taking it, RUN don’t walk to the doc and get liver functin tests done. In any case, you will need liver function tests at least every 3 months for a year or more, less often thereafter. Most folks who tolerate it initially tolerate it well long term. Some folks do much better on one of the other statins, and nobody knows why. I would suggest that you get youd doc to tell you how to wath out for signs of liver failure, as it can happen. As always, YMMV, and, as you have undobutable read, Zocor and the other statins are powerfull drugs, not the kind where you adjust your own dose or skip visits to the doc. Speaking only for myself, Joe Durusau
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You should buy yourself a cheap glucose meter (ReliOn) and strips at WalMart. Then start to test yourself PP for different foods and proportions. By process of elimination, you can regain better PP BG control. I am doing this quite painstakingly. Needless to say, I am burning cash in the process. Cheaper strips would be fantastic. Are the cheaper meters as reliable? I mainly use J&J’s LIfescan OneTouch Ultra currently.
I trust my Relion more than my Ultra at higher bG. My Relion, my Ultra and my Accu-Chek Advantage are in good agreement at any sugar below 150 mg/dL. I am very satisfied with the service and prices for mail order strips from Hocks though they seem to no longer offer their best deals. Their old product list was unbeatable for the premium strips. http://hocks.com/ Regards
I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on?
Different foods "peak" at different time Carter, and we have either higher/lower insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity at different times during the day, plus we’re all a bit different too:-) I think the 2 hour thing is just an average, because like you, I always peak LONG before the 2 hour point. Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks.
Low starch meals DO cause earlier spikes than high starch. That’s a GI thing though and that’s something you’ll learn more and ore about over the next few months/years. Can there be two peaks? In a word… yes, but (with me) it’s only when there’s cheese in the mix. Pizza’s are a classic. I get a spike at about 1/2 an hour after eating one, then a dip, then a HUGE spike at 3 hours. Guess who avoide pizza like the plague? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning).
Keep the hell away from Pizza’s. When THEY jack your sugar up, it takes an age to bring them down again, and using insulin to do it usually results in a slow drop, then a CRASHING fall. Great food, bitch for me:-) And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing.
All veggies are "carby" so maybe the squas family are higher than others. I can’t say they are, I’m hmust guessing. Squash isn’t smething I eat. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon?
Almost EVERYTHING we shove in our gobs ends up as a YMMV thing. I can eat 6 pancakes with lemon and sugar (and no small amount either!!) and not rise above 6 or 7, yet a single ginger biccy or half a banana will have me in double figures within 15 minutes from a starting number below 4. Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare.
This whole fucking disease is bizzare:))) Beav
I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." My questions on that score are — a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage?
Yes you should. I was checked REALLY thoroughly on the day I was dx’d. they went through EVERYTHING. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver function, blood, urine the lot. and so they should, because then (and ONLY then) do you KNOW where you’re starting from. b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen?
It’s what makes you diabetic (and many other T2’s too, so I’d say it was common, but I could be totally wrong:-) Beav
It’s not a two hour peak… At two hours you would like to see yourself coming down. That’s why the one hour goal is under 140 and the two hour goal is under 120. For those of us on insulin, the time of the peak depends very much on the type of food eaten and the type of insulin used. I once injected novolog, at pizza, and saw low 50’s at 1 hour, then 130 at 3 hours after eating. Clearly, the insulin "outran" the food in that case.
Humalog does that, in fact I’ll stick my neck out here and say that the "fast" insulins are the WORST insulins for pizza. If I EVER have a pizza these days (rarely) I don’t go near the Humalog anymore, I use the old Actrapid, but it’s so much hassle remembering and taking ANOTHER bloody pen out, that I don’t bother with pizza when I’m eating out. Beav
What is Actrapid?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not a two hour peak… At two hours you would like to see yourself coming down. That’s why the one hour goal is under 140 and the two hour goal is under 120. For those of us on insulin, the time of the peak depends very much on the type of food eaten and the type of insulin used. I once injected novolog, at pizza, and saw low 50’s at 1 hour, then 130 at 3 hours after eating. Clearly, the insulin "outran" the food in that case. Humalog does that, in fact I’ll stick my neck out here and say that the "fast" insulins are the WORST insulins for pizza. If I EVER have a pizza these days (rarely) I don’t go near the Humalog anymore, I use the old Actrapid, but it’s so much hassle remembering and taking ANOTHER bloody pen out, that I don’t bother with pizza when I’m eating out. Beav
There may be damage to basement level membranes in some organs, but this sort of damage is not easily detected. Is there any way to find out what this damage is? I imagine that the fact I can peak so high if I eat the wrong things (e.g. 2 plateheaps of Pasta) means that I have some pancreatic damage because my first phase insulin secretion has been lost. But how do I find basement-level membrane damage? What does this mean for my future health?
The was a Medscape article that discussed this topic. The eye seemed to be where the detection was noted to my recollection. There is evidence that advanced glycemic end-products (AGE) may be produced at a higher level with higher PP BG excursions that are not reflected in the HbA1c test. This was proven out in some type 1 diabetics that were using rapid acting insulin (Lantus)(which result in a therapy more like first phase insulin secretion) versus regular insulin. The latter group had more AGEs such as CML than those with lower excursions on rapid acting insulins. I am assuming that lower PP BGs would also be of benefit for those with IGT and type 2 diabetes. This is not the head to head article I had in mind, but it is related: Alpha-Dicarbonyls Increase in the Postprandial Period and Reflect the Degree of Hyperglycemia – http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/4/726 (More background – http://tinyurl.com/25yag). I did a search using the terms "basement membranes"+"microvascular complications" for multiple health and science journals and came up with 105 finds. I have selected some of the links below. http://tinyurl.com/23m6y "Localized functional abnormalities of the retina reflected by mfERG delays often precede the onset of new structural signs of diabetic retinopathy. Those functional abnormalities predict the local sites of new retinopathy observed 1 year later." Source: Multifocal Electroretinogram Delays Predict Sites of Subsequent Diabetic Retinopathy – http://www.iovs.org/cgi/content/abstract/45/3/948 Matrix metalloproteinases and their natural inhibitors in fibrovascular membranes of proliferative diabetic retinopathy http://bjo.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/84/10/1091 The topic below is what I was looking for but not mice. Biochemical Pathways for Microvascular Complications of Diabetes Mellitus http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/abstract/37/12/1858 "Diabetic complications are the major cause of morbidity and mortality in persons with diabetes. Chronic hyperglycemia is a major initiator of diabetic microvascular complications (eg, retinopathy, neuropathy, nephropathy). Glucose processing uses a variety of diverse metabolic pathways; hence, chronic hyperglycemia can induce multiple cellular changes leading to complications. Several predominant well-researched theories have been proposed to explain how hyperglycemia can produce the neural and vascular derangements that are hallmarks of diabetes. These theories can be separated into those that emphasize the toxic effects of hyperglycemia and its pathophysiological derivatives (such as oxidants, hyperosmolarity, or glycation products) on tissues directly and those that ascribe pathophysiological importance to a sustained alteration in cell signaling pathways (such as changes in phospholipids or kinases) induced by the products of glucose metabolism. This article summarizes these theories and the potential therapeutic interventions that may prevent diabetic complications in the presence of hyperglycemia, control of which is often difficult with current therapeutic options." Source: Molecular Understanding of Hyperglycemia’s Adverse Effects for Diabetic Complications – http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/288/20/2579 Also, should I specifically ask my doctor for metformin? Since I am somewhat young at 35 and have a ton of time to develop complications, which seem to develop in part due to IR, and not the BG, which is one side effect of IR (thanks to senior resident engineer OldAl for his knowledge and MedScape references!). Seems like I can control my BG all I want, but the underlying IR will still be at work giving me CVD and related issues. OTOH, the young-ish initiation into diabetes also gives me more time to develop dangerous drug side-effects (like messing-up my liver) from long-term medication, doesn’t it?
Metformin has been in use for about 40 years. It has been proven to be safe with the exception that some people can not tolerate the effect of it on their digestive tract and a much smaller number have problems with lactic acidosis. Frank
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Priscilla, I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." That sounds almost exactly like my endo, except he prescribed metformin for cardiac protection. It’s GREAT to have some company. How was your t2 dx’d? Also on a random pp test on a home-meter? How did you weigh your options in terms of getting officially classified as a t2 in the insurance system versus staying an official IGT and actual t2 under your PCP’s care?
Whoa…when was the last time someone was Dx’d with a meter. A meter is NOT a diagnostic tool. It’s debateable whether you’re even IGT. Did you take your meter with you when you had your OGT, did you compare results and calibrate your meter ??
Priscilla, I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." That sounds almost exactly like my endo, except he prescribed metformin for cardiac protection. It’s GREAT to have some company. How was your t2 dx’d? Also on a random pp test on a home-meter? How did you weigh your options in terms of getting officially classified as a t2 in the insurance system versus staying an official IGT and actual t2 under your PCP’s care?
Not my PCP, my endocrinologist. Whole different kettle of fish! ;-) Last January, my regular internist (PCP) was out on maternity leave, and the physician assistant filling in for her did my annual checkup. She ordered the first fasting BG test I’d ever had. (I’d had a GTT years ago and been told I was "borderline diabetic" but no-one ever followed up with me about it, and I didn’t know anything at that time.) The fasting test came in at 130, and the letter in which I was told this said my "sugar was a little high," and they wanted me in for a retest. They seemed more interested in my triglycerides of 248 and my cholesterol (total just under 200, HDL low). It was the FBG that I focussed on, though, since I knew type 2 diabetes ran in my family. I got really scared and started educating myself. Luckily, a poster in this newsgroup, Susan Fein, was a poster in another newsgroup I inhabited, and she clued me into carbohydrates and blood glucose and pointed me to some resources. I read up and started low-carbing. I waited two weeks to go in for the second FBG (which I knew by then would be the one that would confirm a diagnosis of diabetes — or not). When I got it, I was at 103! At that time, 103 was within the normal range. Woo hoo! As far as I was concerned, that proved out low-carbing as the treatment for my diabetes. That was just over a year ago. (Oh, and the low-carbing fixed up my triglycerides and raised my HDL, too.) Unfortunately, my internist, when she returned, and her physician assistant decided that the 103 meant I didn’t have diabetes, despite my telling them over and over again how stringently I was low-carbing and how high my BG would go when I indulged. I’d learned here that metformin was important for cardiac protection, since insulin resistance can do a lot of damage regardless of how tightly one controls one’s BG, and I explained that to my internist, but she refused to prescribe it for me. So I found an endocrinologist. I got an appointment with the endo of a woman I knew, but that MD moved out of the country before the time of my appointment came along, and I was given some dude I’d never heard of before. Turns out he is exactly the right doctor for me. He thinks that how I treat my diabetes is exactly how he wishes all his patients did and says that in 10 years low-carbing will be the established recommended treatment. (It probably didn’t hurt my case that I’d written out a time line of lab results and how I’d been treating my condition with diet, etc.) This guy’s also very personable and has nice crisp boundaries, while also being touchy-feely. A difficult combination to maintain, but he seems to do so. This endo was very clear when he typed his notes into the computer. He said that he was officially diagnosing me with "impaired glucose tolerance" because of how difficult a diagnosis of DM can be when trying to get insurance in the future (and because I’d never had a confirmatory high number needed technically for the diagnosis), but he then turned to me, looked me in the eye and said, "I need you to be very clear that I *do* understand that you have diabetes!" Finally! I was understood! He was also aware of the same information I was about metformin and prescribed it for me. I’m still ramping up on dosage and strugging with side-effects at 1500mg/day. It does feel a little odd, but it’s a deception made necessary by problems not of my making. I keep good control and am in better general health than I was 1.5 years ago. Denial of coverage because of a diagnosis is unfair. I’m probably in better health than many people who’ve never been identified as diabetic but who may well be, people who would be taken on for insurance. I’ve been at my current employer for 23 years, and anticipate remaining here until I retire in 15 years, so I don’t expect I’d need to apply for health insurance before I switch to Medicare, but since anything can happen, my doctor’s "innocent deception" may end up being necessary. Hope this helps. Priscilla
phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare.
No one has yet mentioned that grapefruit is one of the side-effect foods with some blood pressure & cholesterol medications; I know it is with Lipitor. Perhaps this is throwing off the readings.
Priscilla, I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." That sounds almost exactly like my endo, except he prescribed metformin for cardiac protection.
It’s GREAT to have some company. How was your t2 dx’d? Also on a random pp test on a home-meter? How did you weigh your options in terms of getting officially classified as a t2 in the insurance system versus staying an official IGT and actual t2 under your PCP’s care?
a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage? There may be damage to basement level membranes in some organs, but this sort of damage is not easily detected. At your age (35), your glucose/insulin problems have probably been found early. You are also on the lean side. Type 2 diabetics usually have lost some of their early or first phase insulin secretion (secretion within about 15 minutes of eating).
Is there any way to find out what this damage is? I imagine that the fact I can peak so high if I eat the wrong things (e.g. 2 plateheaps of Pasta) means that I have some pancreatic damage because my first phase insulin secretion has been lost. But how do I find basement-level membrane damage? What does this mean for my future health? Also, should I specifically ask my doctor for metformin? Since I am somewhat young at 35 and have a ton of time to develop complications, which seem to develop in part due to IR, and not the BG, which is one side effect of IR (thanks to senior resident engineer OldAl for his knowledge and MedScape references!). Seems like I can control my BG all I want, but the underlying IR will still be at work giving me CVD and related issues. OTOH, the young-ish initiation into diabetes also gives me more time to develop dangerous drug side-effects (like messing-up my liver) from long-term medication, doesn’t it? I have bought a blood-pressure meter from Walgreens for $60 and measure occassionally. I’m trying to figure out how to measure leg-bp as well (haven’t yet). b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen? It is more frequent than many people realize. A person could go on for years and not be diagnosed until they were frankly diabetic.
I have been doing this. To date, the only data in the world showing that my bg exceeds 140/150 with a carb-oriented meal and can go up to 190/200 with a high-glycemic carb-oriented meal is my meter (I have two of them – an older one and a newer one for cross check). That has convinced my doctor, even though my OGTT and HbA1C would probably have had them send me packing as a non-diabetic, and a hypochondriac to boot. I have owned the older meter for years, but checked only sporadically (big mistake – I had not checked PP readings in the last couple of years). My mother is a diabetic who shared the sense of risk with me, so I have always suspected this could happen. I caught the diabetic bg’s quite randomly, when I found my meter and did a PP check. You should buy yourself a cheap glucose meter (ReliOn) and strips at WalMart. Then start to test yourself PP for different foods and proportions. By process of elimination, you can regain better PP BG control.
I am doing this quite painstakingly. Needless to say, I am burning cash in the process. Cheaper strips would be fantastic. Are the cheaper meters as reliable? I mainly use J&J’s LIfescan OneTouch Ultra currently. Glucose intolerance can even vary by time of day, so consider that as a factor in your food choices.
You are absolutely right – my readings absolutely indicate this. T2, dx Jan 2004, Male, 35, 5′11", 175-165-headed to 160 Typical bp 117/72 Typical PP bg 120-145 at 1 hr, 100-120 at 2 hrs; 140-160 at 1hr with overeating Typical morning and pre-dinner fasting bg 77-85 40 mins aerobics daily, low-ish carb meals, trying to add resistance training
It’s not a two hour peak… At two hours you would like to see yourself coming down. That’s why the one hour goal is under 140 and the two hour goal is under 120.
For those of us on insulin, the time of the peak depends very much on the type of food eaten and the type of insulin used. I once injected novolog, at pizza, and saw low 50’s at 1 hour, then 130 at 3 hours after eating. Clearly, the insulin "outran" the food in that case. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jennifer
there is no hard and fast rule for bg peaks. Different foods will peak at different times. A high fat meal or pizza will have keep your bg’s up for many hours. Simple carbs will leave your system rather quickly. The faster the rise, the quicker the fall.
Only if you’ve injected enough insulin. If not, it will just go up fast and stay up until you correct it in the next meal.
I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." My questions on that score are — a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage? b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen? T2, dx Jan 2004, Male, 35 years, 5′11", 175lbs – 165lbs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200) With numbers over 200 IGT appears to be a wrong dx – you ARE t2. As for the spikes, they vary from person to person, from meal to meal, what you were doing before after and before the meal.
I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning).
Nobody really knows; it depends when the foods are digested, when the pancreas responds (for Type 2), when the liver dumps glucose, when the medications take effect, etc. There is little or no response to what is in the stomach; the pancreas and liver only know what is in the blood stream, which is in a not too quick equilibrium with the much larger interstitial fluid. For someone with a steady bg of 100 (1 gram per liter), the blood has about 20 calories of glucose, and the interstitial fluid about 90. Low glycemic index foods will certainly move the peaks later, and are likely to flatten them even to not showing up as peaks. I can see no reason why there cannot be many peaks, or why they cannot change from one day to the next. — This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
My questions on that score are — a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage?
There may be damage to basement level membranes in some organs, but this sort of damage is not easily detected. At your age (35), your glucose/insulin problems have probably been found early. You are also on the lean side. Type 2 diabetics usually have lost some of their early or first phase insulin secretion (secretion within about 15 minutes of eating). b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen?
It is more frequent than many people realize. A person could go on for years and not be diagnosed until they were frankly diabetic. You should buy yourself a cheap glucose meter (ReliOn) and strips at WalMart. Then start to test yourself PP for different foods and proportions. By process of elimination, you can regain better PP BG control. Glucose intolerance can even vary by time of day, so consider that as a factor in your food choices. Frank
I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise." My questions on that score are — a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage?
Yes, I would definitely get those done, on an annual basis. And don’t forget podiatry, please. I am in the UK, so I can’t say whether your insurance would cover those costs fully or partly, but if you do have to pay, well, what price your health? b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen?
I don’t know as much about t2 as I ought to, but if not "common", it certainly does happen. Al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T2, dx Jan 2004, Male, 35 years, 5′11", 175lbs – 165lbs T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200) With numbers over 200 IGT appears to be a wrong dx – you ARE t2. As for the spikes, they vary from person to person, from meal to meal, what you were doing before after and before the meal.
I know. And I agree. And so does the doc really. The doc basically says "Your fasting is 89, HbA1C is 5.6, your 2-hr OGTT is 116. Based on that you are IGT. HOWEVER, your meter shows you cross 200, and that is clearly T2. Be labeled IGT for insurance purposes for now, but you are T2. No meds for now. Diet and exercise like the T2 you are, or else you will face the consequences a T2 faces when they don’t diet and exercise."
That sounds almost exactly like my endo, except he prescribed metformin for cardiac protection. My questions on that score are — a) Should I be checked for retinopathy, kidney, heart and other damage?
I am. b) Is it common for this (relatively low fasting and OGTT, but clearly diabetic PP bgs) to happen?
I haven’t had a GTT in decades, but these days I look non-diabetic until I eat a plate of linguine or a baked potato or any number of other foods I don’t eat any more. AAMOF, my internist refused to believe I was diabetic because I was keeping my numbers so good just with diet and a little exercise. Priscilla
snip…. And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic.
There are two kinds of squash, summer and winter. The summer kinds are low starch. Watery. Rot easily. The winter kinds (keepers) are high starch. Ooops!, that’s a generalization, maybe I’m in trouble. Anyway, don’t know which Chayote is, and of coarse baby squashes could be anything….. Ol’ Bab
there is no hard and fast rule for bg peaks. Different foods will peak at different times. A high fat meal or pizza will have keep your bg’s up for many hours. Simple carbs will leave your system rather quickly. The faster the rise, the quicker the fall. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
I’m with you mate. I peak about the same time you do, unless there is a lot of oil in the meal – the "pizza effect". Don’t sweat it – we’re all a little different. I don’t bother with the two-hour test unless my one-hour is unusual. The important thing is that you are testing and discovering things like this. On squash, grapefruit etc. Once again, we are all a little different. Believe your meter. If it’s a favourite food, reduce the portion size and try again. If that soesn’t work, try a different time of day. If that doesn’t work, check if there are other vitamin or nutrition reasons to persist. If not, dump it. On eating the same thing with different results. Try again if the food is worth the effort; but remember there are also diurnal variations. I can’t handle carbs of any sort before lunch, and only 10-15 gm then. I can handle almost anything after mid-afternoon (in moderation:-) Only your self-testing will eventually show you what and when you can eat. Keep at it – it’s worth the effort. Maybe you can eat your grapefruit at bed-time. Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. dx May 2002 , A1C 8.2=5.9, wt 117kg=90kg, No diabetes meds.Diet and not enough exercise. I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. — Everything in Moderation – Except Laughter.
The 2 hr pp is usually used as the benchmark for testing food imppact on bg, the peak is often around 1 hr but varies with food and person. The 2 hr became the benchmark I speculate because it is/was used for same in the glucose load challendge test where a standard amount of glucose is given and the post intake results tested. As for the things you tested with varing results, one must first note the before intake number. Each item has x amount of impact usually which is in addition to the bg level with which you began. Test to get the responce difference to see what the food does. When you have stabilized your fbg and before meal bg these difference readings will be more helpful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
It’s not a two hour peak… At two hours you would like to see yourself coming down. That’s why the one hour goal is under 140 and the two hour goal is under 120. Jennifer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not a two hour peak… At two hours you would like to see yourself coming down. That’s why the one hour goal is under 140 and the two hour goal is under 120. Jennifer I see everyone talking about 2 hour peaks, but I’ve been measuring peaks usually at 45 minutes to 75 minutes (1 hour 15 minutes). What’s going on? Fyi, my meals do tend to be lower in grains and starches (potatoes and such) – but my understanding is that these time-delay (not advance) the occurance of peaks. Can there be two peaks? I haven’t seen this (2 peaks) happen yet, though I see sustained highs (lasting ~45 mins) when I experiment with some foods (I’m still learning). And while you are here, a couple of diet questions – what’s with the squash family of vegetables? I ate Chayote and it sent my bg rocketing. I experienced something similar with baby squashes (simply microwaved and doused in some lemon juice by way of preparation) I thought they were supposed to be low glycemic. Is this a YMMV phenomenon? Another personal YMMV factoid perhaps – I also have erratic results with grapefruit. Had half a grapefruit one day to see bg go to 100 and then decline. The next day the same size serving from a fresh batch I excitedly bought from the grocers took it to 150 without warning, (when right the day after one slice of whole wheat bread with sugarfree apricot jam only took me to 120 before declining). Could it be that different grapefruit varietals behave differently? Bizzare. T2 detected Jan 23, 2004 (doc and OGTT say IGT, but pp bg can cross 200)
With numbers over 200 IGT appears to be a wrong dx – you ARE t2. As for the spikes, they vary from person to person, from meal to meal, what you were doing before after and before the meal. It would be an easy thing to control DM if we were each the same every day, and all the same as everyone else. That is not the case, which at least keeps life interesting. — Now some people are cute and sweet and soft and kind and gentle, but I’m someone who’s round the bend and marvellously mental!
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Thanks guys for all of your input. It breaks my heart to see my husband so miserable and in so much denial. I will research to find the best doc I can and tell my husband (in a nice way) he is going. I think he’ll be relieved and happy after the initial embarassment of talking to a doctor about this. All of you and this forum are a real God- send. Thank you so much. Before you buy.
From the lengthy description of your husband’s problems, I suspect that the ED is only a symptom of mental illness. He sounds as if he is clinically depressed. That is why your PCP refered him to a psychriatrist. The ED is a result of his mental state. While we would like to see his ED cured, it is not as important as curing his mental illness. I know a little about this because I went throught it with my wife. Please urge him to get psychiatric help.
Thanks guys for all of your input. It breaks my heart to see my husband so miserable and in so much denial. I will research to find the best doc I can and tell my husband (in a nice way) he is going. I think he’ll be relieved and happy after the initial embarassment of talking to a doctor about this. All of you and this forum are a real God- send. Thank you so much.
Here’s a way to put to him: I, Alec Grynspan, have Erectile Dysfunction. I am not impotent, because I did what was necessary. I, Alec Grynspan, need glasses, but I’m not blind. Many humans have this problem. Eagles have superior vision to us. Eagles are an endangered species. I, Alec Grynspan, cannot hunt down my food and kill it with my hands. The tiger can. The tiger will run from me if it’s smart. I’m above it on the food chain and a nice tiger-skin coat… I wear shoes and the Kalahari bushman doesn’t. I’m already older than most of them will reach and I will be around for many more years. I am not ashamed or feel "less of a man" because I have arthritis. I am not ashamed or feel "less of a man" because I have ED. I am not alone with my problems. They can be solved and have been. My sex life is better than many who have never had to work to get it back. If you think that you should feel shame, then disabuse yourself of that silliness. You learned it in the locker room, where boys bragged about exploits that never happened and each secretly felt ashamed that the others would laugh at him, never thinking that, if he needed to lie about it then so did they. You are not a child, so don’t think as the children that pretended to adulthood. YOU ARE A MAN!! Being a man is more than an erect penis. Being a man means that you face your problems and don’t hide from them. The man that does that will conquer his ED.
I have been scanning this wonderful Forum for the past several days. It looks like today is "Ladies Day" for writing in. I am 33 years old, and my husband just turned 37. We have been married for 10 years and have a wonderful little 4 1/2 year old boy. My husband and I always had wonderful sex. About 2 1/2 years ago, that all changed. I seems like over the course of a month or so, my husband would lose his erection and not be able to penetrate, and eventually not get one at all, even through oral sex, his all-time favorite.
Your husband has erectile dysfunction. It’s not you. C/
Thanks again for all the great advice. My husband came home from work early yesterday (3:30 in the afternoon). He laid on the couch and slept while my 4 1/2 year old tried to engage him in play. He got up to eat dinner, and then hit the couch again. He is always sickly and tired. I am so sick of always being in a cheerful mood while he acts this way. All he did was snap at me last night. Well, I finally snapped. I told him I’ve found two wonderful doctors and he could pick which one we could go to. He became furious. He yelled at me, "ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO?" He says I am not allowed to go with him IF he decides to see a doctor. I pleaded with him that it was my problem too, and it was effecting OUR marriage. He told me he was too embarassed to go. He rather ruin the marriage. I was up all last night in tears, not that my husband noticed,cared or spoke to me. He told me we would talk about it some more this weekend, when he felt better, he never feels better. I’ve been unemployed for 4 1/2 years, a stay-at-home mom. I feel kind of trapped. It’s easy for all of you to say, "LEAVE HIM!" Would you like to pay my bills for me? I really think if I suggested we split, he would be relieved, he could live in his own depressed world and not deal with his problems. I am going to go back to my counselor that I saw when we went for marriage counseling. Maybe that will help get my life back online. My husband is a selfish bastard. It’s not a man’s penis that makes him a man. Marge Before you buy.
Marge: I began volunteering, I’m involved with my son’s school, take aerobic classes, do fun things with my friends, belong to a dog therapy group.
Distractions all! Sheesh! Let’s get to the heart of the matter! Get a boyfriend! Someone who loves makin’ love! I am mostly serious. I don’t recod that you do it sneakily, but be upfront about your needs. There are some couples I know in this situation, who have realized that they love each other and one person has needs that the other can’t fulfil, that it is fair for the person to seek it out themselves. -dan
your husband can get help and be better than he ever was if he just gets past the fear .i did and me and my wife have never been happier if he will have him email me .or we could set up a private chat room and discuss it privatley. i know this is a sensitive subject but its worth your time and his to get help
your husband can get help and be better than he ever was if he just gets past the fear .i did and me and my wife have never been happier if he will have him email me .or we could set up a private chat room and discuss it privatley. i know this is a sensitive subject but its worth your time and his to get help
We discourage breaking off from the discussion group for private chats. Not only do we deprive others of the information in the discussion, we’ve had trouble in the past of people not being who they represent. We’ve had people being a different gender than indicated and voyeurs. You never know who you’re talking to. You’ll get a wider range of opinions and a better chance of warning of dangerous options sticking with the group. There’s safety in numbers. — Jerry of ASI Visit the Alt.Support.Impotence website at http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/ Answers to Frequently Asked Questions and links to impotence information on the web
My husband does that everynight…I’ve told him, he doesn’t believe me. I’m now wearing earplugs to get to sleep.
Sleep Apnea is a very serious medical condition. What you need to do is record him at night after he falls asleep. He may not like that very much, but sleep apnea is baaaaaad. C/
Guys! This is why I am at my wits end with all of this stuff. I know it’s bad, you know it’s bad, ect. He thinks it’s cute when I go on the net and look this stuff up, but geez, getting him to take it seriously, that’s another thing all together. I’ve been asking (not telling!) him to go to the doctor for this for month’s now. I told him I can deal with the snoring, ear plugs help, but the sleep apnea needs to be looked at. I’ve also told him that it does impact him with his nodding off, ED, but he still looks at me like a smart ass. I spend more time on him than I do myself…ah love. Before you buy.
The main problem is that her husband is HAPPY the way things are right now. He doesn’t want to change. Until he does, she has to figure out some way to be happy. -dan
The main problem is that her husband is HAPPY the way things are right now. He doesn’t want to change. Until he does, she has to figure out some way to be happy. -dan Dan:
You are exactly right. That is what my counselor and I were working on. (I stopped seeing her about 1 1/2 years ago). I have an appointment to start back with her in several weeks. I began volunteering, I’m involved with my son’s school, take aerobic classes, do fun things with my friends, belong to a dog therapy group. I am very busy and pursue any activity I may find remotely satisfying. I am going to start looking back to the career world (I’m a stay-at-home mom). I would love to find a vocation that I love. I do all this, and it helps for a little while, but it gets me down every once in a while, living with such a cold person. Marge Before you buy.
Guys! This is why I am at my wits end with all of this stuff. I know it’s bad, you know it’s bad, ect. He thinks it’s cute when I go on the net and look this stuff up, but geez, getting him to take it seriously, that’s another thing all together. I’ve been asking (not telling!) him to go to the doctor for this for month’s now. I told him I can deal with the snoring, ear plugs help, but the sleep apnea needs to be looked at. I’ve also told him that it does impact him with his nodding off, ED, but he still looks at me like a smart ass. I spend more time on him than I do myself…ah love.
Well, it can kill him – but if he wants to be a total idiot… I had it – it nearly killed me. Now I get tested every year, at the very least. I know better than to risk that when it’s so easy to correct. Besides, I sleep better and have more energy. But – tell him for me that he’s a blithering idiot!!
sounds like maybe a bit depressed also ???
I had to laugh at that last line! I talked to him last night. He’s cutting back on the smokes and I told him how happy I was with that. He also listened to me about the apnea and I told him that this was something serious and the effects could be contributing to his ED. We had a heart to heart about a lot of things last night and hopefully we’ll both be more tolerant of the little things that were starting to brew up because of his ED. Thanks for your inputs. Before you buy.
BINGO! That’s why I say get a PHYSICAL with your hormone screening. Sleep Apnea can kill! With all of his problems and the sudden onset, I suspect that your best move at this point is to get him to the doctor – or make sure that his insurance premiums are all paid up! I use a CPAP to breath properly at night. It actually helped my condition enormously. Not just ED, but grogginess, depression, headaches, you name it. After a couple of weeks of CPAP I was so full of energy that my boss couldn’t believe it! He said that if it weren’t for my special tech skills, he would have fired me months sooner and was getting unhappy enough to do it anyway! My energy level went thru the roof! As for the high-cholesterol, go to the health-food store and by some lecithin, vitamin E, flax-seed oil and chondroitin sulfate. That will help enormously. He should be on a proper diet, with Lipitor, but the supplements will help. Take them yourself, it’s good for both of you. Also – a salmon steak is delicious and healthier than a beef steak. The above requires no more than both of you taking some vitamins. A change in eating patterns will help, but the above may make the difference! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband does that everynight…I’ve told him, he doesn’t believe me. I’m now wearing earplugs to get to sleep. There is nothing worse than waking up to the noise of someone all of a sudden choking to get a breath in. He comes home and basically falls asleep. I tried to explain to him that he should talk to his doc about this, because it can’t be good to do that every night. Just another nagging wife, huh. It’s a bitch to actually care for someone and then they accuse you of nagging them. ED=Sleep Apnea/Smoking/High Cholesterol in my husbands case. What’s frustrating – all very easy to deal with with just some minor life adjustments. Not going to let it bother me anymore. I’m the one stressing about it. Before you buy.
My husband does that everynight…I’ve told him, he doesn’t believe me. I’m now wearing earplugs to get to sleep. There is nothing worse than waking up to the noise of someone all of a sudden choking to get a breath in. He comes home and basically falls asleep. I tried to explain to him that he should talk to his doc about this, because it can’t be good to do that every night. Just another nagging wife, huh. It’s a bitch to actually care for someone and then they accuse you of nagging them. ED=Sleep Apnea/Smoking/High Cholesterol in my husbands case. What’s frustrating – all very easy to deal with with just some minor life adjustments. Not going to let it bother me anymore. I’m the one stressing about it. Before you buy.
I’m now wearing earplugs to get to sleep.
Get the MAX earplugs at www.dillonprecision.com Gun owners use them, they are rated 33db down and are very comfortable. Drew — Who wears 29db Peltor muffs *over* his 33db MAX earplugs when at the range. Huh? Did you say something? :)
This really rings a bell for me, because it indicates a condition that you might not have checked yet: sleep apnea. If you husband is falling asleep during the day, is irritable, overweight and generally lacking in energy, it could be due to sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is when you stop breathing during the night; typically, the persons breathing will stop, then the person will "jerk" and restart breathing. The person affected probably doesn’t even realize that he or she is coming partially awake, but the end result is a lack of good sleep. Untreated, apnea can cause many problems (heart attacks/failure, high blood pressure, stroke) but ED is one of the reported side effects. In addition to the other good advice given by the people in this group, if you’ve noticed the symptoms of sleep apena, you probably want to get him to a qualified sleep specialist soon. You can find more information about apnea in the alt.support.sleep-disorder group. Tod Pike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again for all the great advice. My husband came home from work early yesterday (3:30 in the afternoon). He laid on the couch and slept while my 4 1/2 year old tried to engage him in play. He got up to eat dinner, and then hit the couch again. He is always sickly and tired. I am so sick of always being in a cheerful mood while he acts this way. All he did was snap at me last night. Well, I finally snapped. I told him I’ve found two wonderful doctors and he could pick which one we could go to. He became furious. He yelled at me, "ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO?" He says I am not allowed to go with him IF he decides to see a doctor. I pleaded with him that it was my problem too, and it was effecting OUR marriage. He told me he was too embarassed to go. He rather ruin the marriage. I was up all last night in tears, not that my husband noticed,cared or spoke to me. He told me we would talk about it some more this weekend, when he felt better, he never feels better. I’ve been unemployed for 4 1/2 years, a stay-at-home mom. I feel kind of trapped. It’s easy for all of you to say, "LEAVE HIM!" Would you like to pay my bills for me? I really think if I suggested we split, he would be relieved, he could live in his own depressed world and not deal with his problems. I am going to go back to my counselor that I saw when we went for marriage counseling. Maybe that will help get my life back online. My husband is a selfish bastard. It’s not a man’s penis that makes him a man. Marge Before you buy.
Marge, From the symptoms you described in your latest post, it sounds like your husband may be a borderline diabetic. I have been diabetic for about 10 years now and due to poor control, also suffer from ED. It too me several years to broach the subject with my doctor, and I actually broached it with a doctor other than my own at first. I was in a drug study for diabetes and during the drug trial, conversations about side effects of diabetes was a mandatory topic. I was finally able to talk about my "problem". It is easy to say that a penis does not make a man, but try to tell that to a man. I grieve for you in that your husband would rather end the marriage than solve the problem. I sincerely hope that he seeks the help he needs. But I know how difficult it is. At times, some in this group have suggested writing down the problem and handing the note to the doctor. That works many times to break the ice, so to speak. Best of luck to you. Bob
It’s true that a man’s penis doesn’t make him a man – but his perception of his problem does. It isn’t selfishness – it’s denial. Call it a terror of facing your worst fear. Please email me and I may have some info that might help and is inappropriate for this forum. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again for all the great advice. My husband came home from work early yesterday (3:30 in the afternoon). He laid on the couch and slept while my 4 1/2 year old tried to engage him in play. He got up to eat dinner, and then hit the couch again. He is always sickly and tired. I am so sick of always being in a cheerful mood while he acts this way. All he did was snap at me last night. Well, I finally snapped. I told him I’ve found two wonderful doctors and he could pick which one we could go to. He became furious. He yelled at me, "ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO?" He says I am not allowed to go with him IF he decides to see a doctor. I pleaded with him that it was my problem too, and it was effecting OUR marriage. He told me he was too embarassed to go. He rather ruin the marriage. I was up all last night in tears, not that my husband noticed,cared or spoke to me. He told me we would talk about it some more this weekend, when he felt better, he never feels better. I’ve been unemployed for 4 1/2 years, a stay-at-home mom. I feel kind of trapped. It’s easy for all of you to say, "LEAVE HIM!" Would you like to pay my bills for me? I really think if I suggested we split, he would be relieved, he could live in his own depressed world and not deal with his problems. I am going to go back to my counselor that I saw when we went for marriage counseling. Maybe that will help get my life back online. My husband is a selfish bastard. It’s not a man’s penis that makes him a man. Marge Before you buy.
Your husband is in denial. Something has definitely gone wrong and, like so many men, refuses to look at the problem. The suddeness and nature of the symptoms gives me a clue, partially from my own past. Some of those whove seen my posts before will groan and say "not again!" but I suspect something organic. Your first step is to find a COMPETENT doctor. The symptoms are very serious! He is lacking in libido to an enormous degree – as if his hormones all vanished suddenly. There are 2 causes that I can see at this point: Hormonal or denial due to previous failure. Denial due to previous failure means that he’s failed and would rather not try than fail again. I doubt this, however, since he’s not getting erections even while asleep. Your other symptoms are a sign of a serious hormonal problem – even to his emotional changes. The following is my standard advice for situations that include yours. This is for your husband: Your problem is physical and your current doctor is seriously negligent. While it’s unlikely that the underlying problem is life-threatening, it should be addressed immediately: First get a good doctor, then – Talk to your doctor about it! Everything! Write it out in detail! Be ruthless! then do the following: 1. Get a hormonal screening. 2. Get a FULL physical. ED can be triggered by any number of things. Some are scary, most are just annoying. A worsening case of ED is a signal that there’s someting else wrong. Have you gained weight recently – particularly as a "spare tire"? 3. If your hormonal screening shows nothing and your physical doesn’t uncover anything request a referal to a urologist – preferably an andrological urologist. 4. If your hormone screening shows a problem, request an andrological-if-possible endocrinologist. As to your hormone screening, there’s usually less than a 30% chance that it’s hormonal, but it’s a good idea to get this out off the way immediately. In your case, I’d say it’s more like 70%. Many doctors see "normal" and don’t question it. Remember the following: 1. Testosterone levels can be normal and inadequate, since the test covers a range from 20-year-olds thru 80-year-olds. 2. Prolactin can be "normal" and at the high end. This can signal a problem when taken with the results from the other tests and the full physical. 3. Estradiol is rarely reported with the range for men. Test for: Total Testosterone. Free Testosterone – *NOT* SHBG only. SHBG LH FSH Prolactin Estradiol Total Estrogen Zinc TSH Free T3 Free T4 Liver Function Make sure that you bring the results and test ranges back here. They’ll be added to the "data base" of results for the next guy that needs a test. You’ll also get a good bit of advice on what to do next. You’re not alone! There is nothing to be ashamed of. If every man who has a problem came forward at the same time, it would be faster to count who DIDN’T have some kind of problem. What you have can be treated. Your wife’s concern for your problem may save you grief later on – IF YOU FOLLOW THRU AND DO SOMETHING!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been scanning this wonderful Forum for the past several days. It looks like today is "Ladies Day" for writing in. I am 33 years old, and my husband just turned 37. We have been married for 10 years and have a wonderful little 4 1/2 year old boy. My husband and I always had wonderful sex. About 2 1/2 years ago, that all changed. I seems like over the course of a month or so, my husband would lose his erection and not be able to penetrate, and eventually not get one at all, even through oral sex, his all-time favorite. From what I can see, he doesn’t get erections at night or in the A.M. Never. He told me he just didn’t want sex anymore, that he rather sleep. I took it personally. I’ve begged him to tell me what the problem is, is it me? All he says is, "I don’t know". We went to marriage counseling, and it didn’t help at all. All he said is, "I don’t know" whenever the counselor asked a question. I asked him to see our family doc, hoping for some Viagra! He did, and the doctor referred him to a psychiatrist (didn’t do any simple blood tests,and no Viagra!). My husband, of course, never went to the psychiatrist. He seems to want to ignore the problem and just accept a life with no sex. That would be fine with me, except he doesn’t want to be intimate in any other way, either. No fooling around at all. His personality has changed drastically in the past 2 1/2 years. He’s depressed, mopey and ultrasensitive. I walk on eggshells so I don’t do or say the wrong thing. The main problem is I seem to want this solved more than he does. I’ve printed off material on impotence from the internet to have him read, since he won’t do it himself. I feel like I’m pushing too much, but it’s been 2 1/2 years! What is my first step? My husband says he’ll handle it, but I’ve heard that for 2 1/2 years. I’d like to find a good doctor in my area — it’s extremely rural, I don’t trust any doctors in my immediate area to know half as much as you guys do!!! This situation has literally killed our marriage. I can’t imagine how painful this must be for him. But he acts like it doesn’t bother him and doesn’t want to try to solve it. I guess he’s scared to. Sorry this is so long, but I’m so tired of banging my head up against a wall. What a horrible nightmare this dysfunction is. Marge Before you buy.
This is very tough for everyone involved and sometimes it’s hard for the significant others in relationships like this to really understand what is going on especially when the one with the physical problem will not acknowledge that it is in fact a problem that affects two. You sound a lot like me in some regards. It’s hard. Have him understand that this is a two person problem, not just one. Before you buy.
see, he doesn’t get erections at night or in the A.M. Never. He told me he just didn’t want sex anymore, that he rather sleep. I took it personally. I’ve begged him to tell me what the problem is, is it me?
Women take erectile dysfunction personally. I believe its universal. I really mean that – I think all women take ED as a form of rejection. All he says is, "I don’t know". We went to marriage counseling, and it didn’t help at all. All he said is, "I don’t know" whenever the
Sex is *the* barometer of a relationship, but that statement is contingent on everything being normal in the hormone department. counselor asked a question. I asked him to see our family doc, hoping for some Viagra! He did, and the doctor referred him to a psychiatrist (didn’t do any simple blood tests,and no Viagra!). My husband, of
Viagra might help, but to be honest, it sounds like his testosterone level has just tanked. I strongly suggest that he have his hormone levels checked. And if he’s deficient in testosterone – do NOT start supplementing it directly with testosterone first thing. Alec is the resident expert on this, but the gist of it is this: Using external sources of testosterone will eventually shut down the body’s production of testosterone, and this can be irreversible. He could find himself requiring external testosterone forever. Assuming his T levels are low, the first thing to do is to try and "goose" his system into producing more. Alec, where are ya and speak up man… himself. I feel like I’m pushing too much, but it’s been 2 1/2 years! What is my first step? My husband says he’ll handle it, but I’ve heard that for 2 1/2 years.
My advice tends to draw fire from people, because I basically say the same thing to husbands whose wives no longer seem interested in sex. And the advice is this: Stop tolerating the status quo. Put your husband in the sexual crucible. Make him decide whether getting this fixed is better than watching you pack your bags. It really comes down to that. All the understanding and compassion you show him now won’t change the fact that he isn’t meeting your need for intimacy. And until you stop tolerating his ignoring your need for intimacy, its a little silly to expect him to change. Drew
I have been scanning this wonderful Forum for the past several days. It looks like today is "Ladies Day" for writing in. I am 33 years old, and my husband just turned 37. We have been married for 10 years and have a wonderful little 4 1/2 year old boy. My husband and I always had wonderful sex. About 2 1/2 years ago, that all changed. I seems like over the course of a month or so, my husband would lose his erection and not be able to penetrate, and eventually not get one at all, even through oral sex, his all-time favorite. From what I can see, he doesn’t get erections at night or in the A.M. Never. He told me he just didn’t want sex anymore, that he rather sleep. I took it personally. I’ve begged him to tell me what the problem is, is it me? All he says is, "I don’t know". We went to marriage counseling, and it didn’t help at all. All he said is, "I don’t know" whenever the counselor asked a question. I asked him to see our family doc, hoping for some Viagra! He did, and the doctor referred him to a psychiatrist (didn’t do any simple blood tests,and no Viagra!). My husband, of course, never went to the psychiatrist. He seems to want to ignore the problem and just accept a life with no sex. That would be fine with me, except he doesn’t want to be intimate in any other way, either. No fooling around at all. His personality has changed drastically in the past 2 1/2 years. He’s depressed, mopey and ultrasensitive. I walk on eggshells so I don’t do or say the wrong thing. The main problem is I seem to want this solved more than he does. I’ve printed off material on impotence from the internet to have him read, since he won’t do it himself. I feel like I’m pushing too much, but it’s been 2 1/2 years! What is my first step? My husband says he’ll handle it, but I’ve heard that for 2 1/2 years. I’d like to find a good doctor in my area — it’s extremely rural, I don’t trust any doctors in my immediate area to know half as much as you guys do!!! This situation has literally killed our marriage. I can’t imagine how painful this must be for him. But he acts like it doesn’t bother him and doesn’t want to try to solve it. I guess he’s scared to. Sorry this is so long, but I’m so tired of banging my head up against a wall. What a horrible nightmare this dysfunction is. Marge Before you buy.
Categories: Taking Coq10 With Lipitor | No Comments »
(CEKane) writes: LT, how long were you on Lipitor? My wife started out with numbers similar to yours, took Lipitor and got numbers similar to yours in the second column. Now, a year later, still on Lipitor, she is back where she started. My question: It the effectiveness of Lipitor short lived?
Kane-I started in 1999 about the time those lab results I posted were available to me. I got really worried about my chlosterol , but particularly the triglycerides. I had been on a couple of other drugs (Zocor) being one of them. when I discovered how far superior Lipitor was and the fact that Zocor will contribute to a limp dick, I brought it to the attention of my doc and asked him to change it to Lipitor and have been on it ever since. I do quite a few other things such as Omega-3 EFA via flaxseed oil and essentially Alec’s suggested regimen with a couple of additions, etc.I attribuet a LOT of my arterial clearing and success with lowering cholesterol to l-arginine which got very serious about at that time. And as you likely know, I have been promoting L-a for several years now. In the August issue of circulation (the official journal of the Americn Heart Assn.) is an account of resuearch showing that L-a had stronger inhibitory effect on carotid plaque formation and aortic artery vessel walls thickening than major statin class drugs (not Lipitor, but drugs like Mevacor (lovastatin, etc.). L-a is a very attractive, effective and cheap non prescription option for controlling cholesterol and its health consequences and I wouldn’t be caught without it for so many validated reasons. Also, I changed my diet considerably and increased my workouts with free weights to about double what I had been doing for years (does wonders for the heart and I will take on most any 65 year-old anytime in a physique or strength contest at any time!). You know what weights can do likely if you keep up with cardio literature and read posts by Joe the Courageous here on ASI. My wife also works out daily (with me) and uses free weights also and follows the same regimen, and she has numbers like me also, and still looks like she did when she was featured twirler at one of our major universities in the mid fifties and has only gained 3 pounds since then. I do not know it your system can build up resistance to Lipitor or other drugs of the hyperlipidemia category, but I will definitely look into it. I have one of the most highly acclaimed cardiologists in Houston who is know a lot about drugs and endocrinology and I’ll ask him also next week. maybe she neds to get on this regimen. Based on her personal experience (not mine) my wife swears by L-arginine for the two or three major things it has done for her. L.T. "Character is doing what is right when nobody is watching" "SEX is Dirty…only if it is done right" "Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die"
The urologist (2/98) said the results will vary, depending on time of day, higher in morning, lower in afternoon. I have not had any since then. Would I be wise to request another test?
Yes. While this is just my personal opinion, any regular readings under 400 ng/dl, WITHOUT REGARD TO HOW OLD YOU ARE, are justification to begin immediate TRT. Would I be out of line asking for another testosterone test? A book I have says that 300-1200 is normal.
You have to be careful of that word "normal". All it means is that 95% of all men fall into the range. I have read in these postings that mayber a 500-700 level would be better.
Closer to 800 is better, but again, just my opinion. 380 is definitely way too low. C//
B/4 drugs for cholesterol I was 250-295; Triglcerides = 150-180 after LESCOL cholesterol averaged 210-220; after BAYCOL it is now 175 and Triglycerides are now 60-85
You have made a lot of improvement and you might try Lipitor and the regimen that Alec recomends to improve even more. Following are my numbers following the regimen with Lipitor: Feb 1999 Today Total Cholesterol 214 87 HDL 28 35 LDL 116 72 VLDL 64 12 Triglycerides 320 58 L.T. "Character is doing what is right when nobody is watching" "SEX is Dirty…only if it is done right" "Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die"
Following are my numbers following the regimen with Lipitor: Feb 1999 Today Total Cholesterol 214 87 HDL 28 35 LDL 116 72 VLDL 64 12 Triglycerides 320 58 L.T.
LT, how long were you on Lipitor? My wife started out with numbers similar to yours, took Lipitor and got numbers similar to yours in the second column. Now, a year later, still on Lipitor, she is back where she started. My question: It the effectiveness of Lipitor short lived?
I’ve had E.D for about 7 yrs. I’m 46 now. Posted a few notes in last few days, I’m in the UPRIMA TEEST Right now. Back injury is *maybe* Now to my question.. Well, when I started (sought) the treatment for E.D. (12/97) my P.C.P. ordered testosterone tests, first off. I then went to see a urologist. Started on CAVERJECT, which helped (cured??), then I entered the UPRIMA TRAILS in 4/98. I was concerned about priapism, and had some pain with the Caverject too. So I wanted to try the new drug, as Vaigra wasn’t out yet. During my first P.C.P visit,(12/97) he also wanted me to get my 20mg, stayed on it for about 2 years, got cholesterol down some, but he changed to BAYCOL (.4 mg) this January. (1/00) Now my cholesterol is really under control. BUT, I’ve noticed a disctinct change in my sex drive.. meaning, I just don’t seem to care anymore. This really bothers me alot. Not sure if my E.D., and very limited success with UPRIMA, especially lately.. is just getting me depresssed, or maybe my Testoserone is so low. It may now be contributing?? I also don’t seem to have much drive, overall either. Work is becoming more of a hassle, even with same job, and I am less entergetic around house too. What I’ve read is that our testicles FEED on CHOLSEROL to produce Testoterone. Could mine be on a ‘hunger strike? Results are below; 12/97 Testosterone = 455; at 44 y/o FREE TESTOSTERONE = 13.3 THE above WAS BEFORE the LESCOL After starting LESCOL: 2/98 Testosterone – 380; at 44 y/o FREE TESTOSTERONE = 8.7 The drop was 16.5% and 35%, if my calaulator was right? The urologist (2/98) said the results will vary, depending on time of day, higher in morning, lower in afternoon. I have not had any since then. Would I be wise to request another test? TAP (UPRIMA) has not done any ever, as I get a copy of the quarterly blood work. Besides guys, my wife doesn’t want sex at 4AM, we like 8-10PM. Maybe I drop so low in the day, I just don’t care for any either, by evening ?? I wonder how much lower my Testoserone is now, that my cholesterol is was so low. B/4 drugs for cholesterol I was 250-295; Triglcerides = 150-180 after LESCOL cholesterol averaged 210-220; after BAYCOL it is now 175 and Triglycerides are now 60-85 Would I be out of line asking for another testosterone test? A book I have says that 300-1200 is normal. I have read in these postings that mayber a 500-700 level would be better. I hope i’ve not rambled too much. Anyone with GOOD AVICE OUT THERE. I could use the help. Before you buy.
Categories: Taking Coq10 With Lipitor | No Comments »
Hah! You did us LC’rs proud girlfriend! ConnieW
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from sort of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
You are a Goddess and the women in your office are the spawn of the anti-christ. Lynne http://ca.geocities.com/swimqueen1ca/Lynne.html
Now Lynne, don’t sugar(Splenda)-coat it…what do you REALLY think? 
Wayne Crannell 250/208.5/175 Atkins 10/27/01
Here, here! You have the right attitude my dear. I’m sure you will always do well in life because of it. ConnieW
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d rather be a nice 250lb woman, than a 110lb bitch! But I intend to be a delightful 140lb lady one day. If I ever turn into one of those women, anyone who knows me has the right to slap me hard! Losers unite! JD <<Amanda, What a day! What an office! I thought your co-workers comments about your boyfriend were interesting. I have always worked in a predominately male work environment. In my last job my department was nearly all male – but the company was predominately female. I found the catty comments these ‘gals’ made about each other to be amazing. The comments, though subtle, were zingers every time. I took it to mean they were insecure of themselves so were venting on others. I also found that I seemed to be the one they shared this information with a lot. I thought this was because I was safe. (Change that last word to FAT!) I would listen to these comments in stunned silence. No way was I going to give them any encouragement or affirm their comments. It was quite an eyeopener for me. May you continue your merry journey with pounds melting from your body! JD Jeanette, My weight problems didn’t start until I became very depressed about six years ago now, but before that, I was not what you’d call a people person. I was a tomboy, and an athlete, so most of my friends were male, or other tomboys. My previous jobs have been in male-dominated offices — professionals who could care less what you look like as long as you know how to work the damn computer. <g But in those male-dominated fields, when their wives dropped by, they were always happy to discover that I was fat. As you put it, I was "safe" to them. Now that I’m not only in a female-dominated office, but in a female-dominated *company*, I’m getting a taste of the clique politics I had so terribly missed <smirk up until now. I remember my last boss was a male, and though I was still overweight then, his wife was more overweight than I was, and took an instant dislike to me. Women seem to be far more critical of other women and themselves than men could ever be. It’s sad, really. There’s a lot of potential there for working together and coordinating effort, but they seem to be missing the point. I know that, having been fat, and having never really had any self-esteem of any kind, I have lots of emotional weight that I need to lose as well as the physical weight (I still feel and occasionally act like that 310 pound girl). The things women say about each other have been an eyeopener for me, too! <g Books are nicer and can’t snipe behind your back. That’s what I keep telling my therapist anyway. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
What a great day for you! And what a bunch of catty, nasty, bitchy women. They are jealous, worthless, and afraid of you because you are showing success, and all they see in themselves is repeated failure. People like this – female, male – can make life miserable, but once you learn to objectify them, make them invisible, do what it takes, the empowerment you gain is fantastic. I would also like to recommend to anyone who listens to this crap from others at work, and internalizes it, to give thought to it is not you – it is them! A great book about the subject of nasty work situations is called The Bully in the Workplace – and believe me, it is so true. It saved my life in many ways! Congrats on your success, your self-control, and your pride! And to the gal who said she would rather be 240 lbs rather than a 110 lb bitch, you go girl! Sami
ttooooo funny, cracked my whole house up thanks — JoKnows http://home.kscable.com/a1av8ter/joknows.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from sort of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<snip of excellent stuff In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives.
Just remember – it’s not about you; it’s about them. Stay strong! Myra
(GriffAt1st) writes: When she takes a handful of popcorn I get tempted to ask, "so how many points is that?"
Just FYI, 8 ounces of flounder is more points than 1 serving from a Betty Crocker Brownie mix. Is that stupid, or what? .. Bridget M. CAD 2/94 LC 7/01
<< Amanda, I usually either don’t read, or skim through very long posts. But I want you to know that this was *very* well written, funny and entertaining. You should seriously consider submitting this "article" to Reader’s Digest for publication. You have a definite talent for writing. Thank you, Peter! As a matter of fact, the beloved and I met at an online writer’s forum. That’s where our correspondence began. We’re both aspiring novelists/humorists (strangely, I write humor articles and dark crime novels… never underestimate the power of hosting several personalities), just not published yet. You may see our names one day! (I’ll be sure to casually mention it in my .sig file or something 
) Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< ttooooo funny, cracked my whole house up <Ego Is Engaged You read it to EVERYONE?! Cool! Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< You are a Goddess and the women in your office are the spawn of the anti-christ. Ooo! Do I get my own shrine and cool robes and stuff? I’m there! Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< Amanda…you are a TRUE inspiration!! I read your post and thought of myself (in almost the same situation), just havent lost that much weight. But you WILL! <<Thank you for telling about your day! Great job…keep up the good work. Thanks! I’m glad that lots of people could relate! Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<<Fantastic post! Thank you so much for every single word of it. Your day yesterday (and it sounds like most work days) are very much like mine, and your attitudes about the things people say in response to how you deal with their questions and compliments are also right on target. I feel SO much more normal now, thank you a million times. <flattered No problem! But heaven forbid *I* make anyone feel more normal! <g I’ve honed an edge of sarcasm over several years, otherwise I’d be The Dour Sourpuss. <<My big one yesterday while I was getting that fantastic comment about how I’d inspired someone to LC was my boss chiming in from across the room "she doesn’t eat, that’s how she does it!" Bwhahahaha! My co-workers know better. It’s the huge plates of buffalo wings, rotisserie chicken and double bacon cheeseburgers (sans evil bread, of course) that convince them. They’re sure I’m going to keel over at any minute. The ones who don’t think I’m going to keel over at any minute say, "Well, you just must have a really unique body chemistry and metabolism if eating that kind of food makes you lose weight." My take on this is, "Balanced meals are for balanced people." <<I responded with, "no, I just don’t eat the stuff in this office." The snack table currently is filled with boxes of tricuits (low fat of course), a big barrel of pretzels, a giant tin of three kinds of flavored popcorn, several kinds of girl scout cookies and a bowl filled with hershey kisses. This is a normal day. Oh yes, and my boss is on Weight Watchers. When she takes a handful of popcorn I get tempted to ask, "so how many points is that?" <eg Bet you she’d put it back down. "Oh yeah… points. Right." With my co-workers, it’s just as exasperating. The nutritional decisions they make, and their supposed reasoning for these nutritional changes, simply escapes me. A co-worker who was told that her cholesterol was "dangerously high" ordered a cold sandwich instead of a hot one, because, "It’s the grilled stuff that’s higher in cholesterol, right?" I tried telling her about low-carb, but she simply can’t imagine Life Without Bread and Ice Cream. But Life with Lipitor… well, that’s okay. <wry So she had a cold sandwich with all the fixings and a bag of potato chips. "Are potato chips high in fat?" she asks me. I said blandly, "It’s the grease they’re fried in that’s high in fat." "Oh. Alright, then." Windburn. <<By the way, you are amazing, 130 pounds pounds lost! You are most definitely the wind beneath my wings. On Carbolite bar nights, I’m the wind beneath my OWN wings! How cool is that? << Thanks again for sharing, and please share more often. Tips on how to deal with this office stress would be hugely appreciated. Violet, it’s a daily learning experience, one I will probably take great joy in documenting. <g That’s what they say in Corporate Infrastructures… "Document everything!" <g Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< Hah! You did us LC’rs proud girlfriend! That’s me, fighting the good fight. <g Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< What a great day for you! And what a bunch of catty, nasty, bitchy women. They are jealous, worthless, and afraid of you because you are showing success, and all they see in themselves is repeated failure. They’d have to actually TRY to fail. <g Their attempts are all half-hearted at best. Hey, I’ve been there and understand that. What I DON’T understand is why you’d keep doing the same thing, yielding the same results, and then bemoan that nothing was changing? When my food plan/ exercise plan quit working for me, I hit the books! Every nutritional book I could get my hands on! Don’t people READ anymore? Don’t they want to know more about what makes them tick? <<People like this – female, male – can make life miserable, but once you learn to objectify them, make them invisible, do what it takes, the empowerment you gain is fantastic. I would also like to recommend to anyone who listens to this crap from others at work, and internalizes it, to give thought to it is not you – it is them! A great book about the subject of nasty work situations is called The Bully in the Workplace – and believe me, it is so true. It saved my life in many ways! Recommendation noted! (I’ve always been a reading fool. I’m convinced that that’s how I’ve obtained this particular ass-shape.) Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today.
<snip Amanda, I usually either don’t read, or skim through very long posts. But I want you to know that this was *very* well written, funny and entertaining. You should seriously consider submitting this "article" to Reader’s Digest for publication. You have a definite talent for writing. And congratulations on the weight loss. :) — Peter http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/marengo/weightlosspix.html
Fantastic post! Thank you so much for every single word of it. Your day yesterday (and it sounds like most work days) are very much like mine, and your attitudes about the things people say in response to how you deal with their questions and compliments are also right on target. I feel SO much more normal now, thank you a million times. My big one yesterday while I was getting that fantastic comment about how I’d inspired someone to LC was my boss chiming in from across the room "she doesn’t eat, that’s how she does it!" I responded with, "no, I just don’t eat the stuff in this office." The snack table currently is filled with boxes of tricuits (low fat of course), a big barrel of pretzels, a giant tin of three kinds of flavored popcorn, several kinds of girl scout cookies and a bowl filled with hershey kisses. This is a normal day. Oh yes, and my boss is on Weight Watchers. When she takes a handful of popcorn I get tempted to ask, "so how many points is that?" By the way, you are amazing, 130 pounds pounds lost! You are most definitely the wind beneath my wings. Thanks again for sharing, and please share more often. Tips on how to deal with this office stress would be hugely appreciated. – Violet — LC since 10/01/01 six feet tall 3??/228/185 28/14/? lost a shoe size too! http://www.geocities.com/violets_lc/lowcarb.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
I’d rather be a nice 250lb woman, than a 110lb bitch! But I intend to be a delightful 140lb lady one day. If I ever turn into one of those women, anyone who knows me has the right to slap me hard! Losers unite! JD
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<Amanda, What a day! What an office! I thought your co-workers comments about your boyfriend were interesting. I have always worked in a predominately male work environment. In my last job my department was nearly all male – but the company was predominately female. I found the catty comments these ‘gals’ made about each other to be amazing. The comments, though subtle, were zingers every time. I took it to mean they were insecure of themselves so were venting on others. I also found that I seemed to be the one they shared this information with a lot. I thought this was because I was safe. (Change that last word to FAT!) I would listen to these comments in stunned silence. No way was I going to give them any encouragement or affirm their comments. It was quite an eyeopener for me. May you continue your merry journey with pounds melting from your body! JD Jeanette, My weight problems didn’t start until I became very depressed about six years ago now, but before that, I was not what you’d call a people person. I was a tomboy, and an athlete, so most of my friends were male, or other tomboys. My previous jobs have been in male-dominated offices — professionals who could care less what you look like as long as you know how to work the damn computer. <g But in those male-dominated fields, when their wives dropped by, they were always happy to discover that I was fat. As you put it, I was "safe" to them. Now that I’m not only in a female-dominated office, but in a female-dominated *company*, I’m getting a taste of the clique politics I had so terribly missed <smirk up until now. I remember my last boss was a male, and though I was still overweight then, his wife was more overweight than I was, and took an instant dislike to me. Women seem to be far more critical of other women and themselves than men could ever be. It’s sad, really. There’s a lot of potential there for working together and coordinating effort, but they seem to be missing the point. I know that, having been fat, and having never really had any self-esteem of any kind, I have lots of emotional weight that I need to lose as well as the physical weight (I still feel and occasionally act like that 310 pound girl). The things women say about each other have been an eyeopener for me, too! <g Books are nicer and can’t snipe behind your back. That’s what I keep telling my therapist anyway. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< I’d rather be a nice 250lb woman, than a 110lb bitch! Hear, hear! <<But I intend to be a delightful 140lb lady one day. If I ever turn into one of those women, anyone who knows me has the right to slap me hard! Losers unite! I’d like to think that, because I was once very overweight, I’m show a bit more empathy to people of all sizes… but not necessarily people of all dispositions. <g There are people who aren’t attractive until you know them, and people who are attractive until they open their mouths. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
You are a Goddess and the women in your office are the spawn of the anti-christ. Lynne http://ca.geocities.com/swimqueen1ca/Lynne.html
Amanda…you are a TRUE inspiration!! I read your post and thought of myself (in almost the same situation), just havent lost that much weight. Thank you for telling about your day! Great job…keep up the good work. Angie~
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from sort of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<<Amanda, What a day! What an office! I thought your co-workers comments about your boyfriend were interesting. I have always worked in a predominately male work environment. In my last job my department was nearly all male – but the company was predominately female. I found the catty comments these ‘gals’ made about each other to be amazing. The comments, though subtle, were zingers every time. I took it to mean they were insecure of themselves so were venting on others. I also found that I seemed to be the one they shared this information with a lot. I thought this was because I was safe. (Change that last word to FAT!) I would listen to these comments in stunned silence. No way was I going to give them any encouragement or affirm their comments. It was quite an eyeopener for me. May you continue your merry journey with pounds melting from your body! JD Jeanette, My weight problems didn’t start until I became very depressed about six years ago now, but before that, I was not what you’d call a people person. I was a tomboy, and an athlete, so most of my friends were male, or other tomboys. My previous jobs have been in male-dominated offices — professionals who could care less what you look like as long as you know how to work the damn computer. <g But in those male-dominated fields, when their wives dropped by, they were always happy to discover that I was fat. As you put it, I was "safe" to them. Now that I’m not only in a female-dominated office, but in a female-dominated *company*, I’m getting a taste of the clique politics I had so terribly missed <smirk up until now. I remember my last boss was a male, and though I was still overweight then, his wife was more overweight than I was, and took an instant dislike to me. Women seem to be far more critical of other women and themselves than men could ever be. It’s sad, really. There’s a lot of potential there for working together and coordinating effort, but they seem to be missing the point. I know that, having been fat, and having never really had any self-esteem of any kind, I have lots of emotional weight that I need to lose as well as the physical weight (I still feel and occasionally act like that 310 pound girl). The things women say about each other have been an eyeopener for me, too! <g Books are nicer and can’t snipe behind your back. That’s what I keep telling my therapist anyway. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
Amanda, What a day! What an office! I thought your co-workers comments about your boyfriend were interesting. I have always worked in a predominately male work environment. In my last job my department was nearly all male – but the company was predominately female. I found the catty comments these ‘gals’ made about each other to be amazing. The comments, though subtle, were zingers every time. I took it to mean they were insecure of themselves so were venting on others. I also found that I seemed to be the one they shared this information with a lot. I thought this was because I was safe. (Change that last word to FAT!) I would listen to these comments in stunned silence. No way was I going to give them any encouragement or affirm their comments. It was quite an eyeopener for me. May you continue your merry journey with pounds melting from your body! JD
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three perfect, foil-wrapped chocolates on my desk — just sitting there. Now, while most people would melt at the sight of such sentiment, I was more prone to do a Commando-style number where I hit the ground, took cover and called in Special Ops to neutralize the threat. Triumph #1. I casually ("Say, could you remove these freakin’ chocolates from sort of thing could get more enjoyment out of them. Reply: "Oh, you can have them! It’s Valentine’s Day! Besides, they’re filled with caramel." (Inner response: "OH! Filled with *caramel*! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? That’s *much* more acceptable.") Instead: I simply gave them to someone else by way of putting them on a confirmed chocolate-lovers desk. And then stealthily walked away. If she noticed, she did not let on. Then I ordered breakfast from the place next door — scrambled eggs with cheese, side of bacon. Obstacle #2. For our potluck today, someone had made a chocolate cake covered with Valentine’s Day M&Ms. It looked thick and delicious. Luckily for me, someone else (some kind, thoughtful soul) brought baked chicken wings. I brought a salad. I was covered. I sat there during the dessert portion of the meal as everyone feasted on cake. I got up to leave. This was construed as antisocial. "Amanda doesn’t want to sit here because she knows she’s going to eat some cake," chimed the Voice of Challenge. So I came back in, sat down, and sipped some diet Pepsi as everyone tore into cookies and cake. Triumph #2. I didn’t give in. Obstacle #3. Someone comes in to inform me, "They just put Snickers bars in the chocolate tin!" (I have to tell you about the chocolate tin: We’re an office of mostly women, so for some reason, a chocolate tin has to be maintained. When new things are added to the chocolate tin, a wave of excitement ripples through the office, much like a sinus infection. It’s humorous to watch in that National Geographic "look at what that bear is doing to that other bear!" kind of way.) Triumph #3. "Snickers in the chocolate tin, you say? I must write a memo to Corporate immediately!" I was called a smartass for my troubles, but did not have a Snickers bar. Ah, the slings and arrows of outrageous candy. Obstacle #4: Not really an obstacle. Of the three obstacles above, I think what might have stopped me the most is the fact that I was wearing a very snug-fitting black pantsuit. While they say that black hides a multitude of sins, they were not referring to my black faux velvet pantsuit. But because I don’t usually wear form-fitting clothes (size 12 or not), I got a lot of attention at another office when I went there on an errand. Someone said, "Are you losing weight?!" I said, "Yes, slowly but surely." Someone else piped in, "How are you doing it?" I answered, "Well, the first 80 pounds…" "YOU’VE LOST 80 POUNDS?!" (My first mistake.) "No, I’ve lost 130. But the first 80 was thanks to lots of high-impact exercise and weight-training, along with a less-than-perfect low-calorie diet. Currently, I’m on a low-carb diet. I’m as comfortable talking about my diet as most people would be their genitals. It’s not a natural topic of discussion for me. It would’ve been really easy to snark my way out of the interrogation and go about my business. Instead, I answered the questions. Triumph #4. Instead of deflecting the subsequent compliments with dry retorts (as I am wont to do), I gave gracious "Thank yous" and THEN went on my way. Not my usual M.O. The flipside of this: My boyfriend brought flowers to me at work — a beautiful bouquet of red roses and pink carnations. The same women who pushed chocolate all day made a lot of surprisingly catty comments. "You’ll notice that the thinner you get, the more presents he’ll give you." "Yep, when other men start looking, they have to make sure they’re taking care of you." And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works. And they don’t like it one bit. I think this is why they press extra firmly with the chocolate. In the past, they’ve delighted when I gave in to my urges. I didn’t realize how ugly it was until today when a simple token of love and affection, from one to another, got twisted into a lot of shallow, ulterior motives. So that was my day, and I’m incredulous that I survived it. On to the nutritional stuff… dinner was Pizza Hut wings (it’s been a chicken kind of week for me). Water: I’m not done yet. I’m working on the second half of my second liter. Broke my "no diet drinks" rule today, but it was a damn sight better than caving in to chocolate cake. Supplements: The usual. Exercise: Same walking mileage (3.6 mi), different day. <g Fitday says: 2065 calories 63% fat/ 35% protein/ 2% carbs 13g of carbs, 1 of them fiber I FEEL A SENSE OF POWER! …wait… No, I was just sitting on the ice pack again. If you’ve read this far, my thanks. Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
<< May their brains ooze out their ears with envy every time you walk by their desks. Hmm. That could get messy. I’ll bring a handvac. <snipping some of the great advice as I go <<Fill up the "Snickers bowl" yourself and make remarks like, "It’s so good to see someone so comfortable with her body image that she can eat those Snickers bars. I like to say, "Oh, I *like* chocolate, but I’m allergic to it. Makes my ass swell up like you wouldn’t believe." <<And the ones who are particularly evil, you might just offer them some of your old clothes…and be sure to mention the sizes OUT LOUD. You know, when I dropped to size 16, a co-worker who said she’d "grown out of them" (she didn’t indicate in which direction) gave me some size 16 clothes… which were much appreciated and then passed on to another co-worker who needed them. This is true to life! <g <<Don’t you dare let these people stop you! They are your motivation. My God..look at your numbers. You have almost lost half a person!! Just remember that every single cheat could put you right back to where you started and there is nothing, no piece of chocolate, no M&M cake, not one thing, that is worth that! Thanks, Wayne! I’m not sure what pissed me off more: their catty comments about the whole situation or their indictment of my boyfriend’s motives. It’s obvious to anyone that he and I have a very good, honest relationship and mutual respect for one another. (We’re both also quite demented; it helps.) He met me at 270 lbs. and loved me as much then as he does now. "Same woman, less of her," he says. He has never pressured me to diet or not diet. (Honestly, I think he couldn’t care less; he gets glassy-eyed and nods at the correct intervals when I babble excitedly about the WOE <g.) He responds to the increased confidence that I have in myself, but not my weight. I don’t like hearing people minimize his humanity anymore than I like them leaving little chocolate minefields all over the office. <g Amanda, 5′8" 310/186/I’ll know when I get there 45 gone since 11-00 Q: "What’s it like to have no privacy?" John Lennon: "We have privacy! We had some just the other day, didn’t we, Paul? Tell them." – Beatles press conference, 1966
Several things related to WOE seemed to "happen" to me today. Obstacle #1. When I walked into my office this morning, there were three
[hilarity snipped] This was CLASSIC! L O L !!!!! And other backhanded comments such as that. Since I’ve been losing weight and changing shape, and getting more comfortable with the shape I have, I’ve noticed an undercurrent of resentment with some of the office women. They are on diets themselves (for a few days at a time only). They gripe about their weight, their energy, their cholesterol… of course, I think low-carb diets are the Way, the Truth and the Light. But when I battled my weight, I didn’t like people preaching diets to me, so I don’t do it to anyone else unless prompted. They’re aware of the diet I’m on. They’re aware that it works.
May their brains ooze out their ears with envy every time you walk by their desks. Make them suffer….have your boyfriend come to the office with gifts. Look good and it will kill them! Keep the gifts in the open. Say stuff like, "Well, at the beginning of our relationship he just gave me candy, but I think as we have grown closer, he prefers flowers and jewelry. It’s so much more classy don’t you think?" Fill up the "Snickers bowl" yourself and make remarks like, "It’s so good to see someone so comfortable with her body image that she can eat those Snickers bars. Say stuff like, "Hell yes my boyfriend is more attentive (wink here). It’s just thsat I’m SO tired these days (wink again). You really ought to try it sometime." And the ones who are particularly evil, you might just offer them some of your old clothes…and be sure to mention the sizes OUT LOUD. And the ultimate killer…."You know I really don’t like chocolate much anymore (OK, lying may be necessary here)…but you go ahead since it’s pretty apparent you do. Don’t you dare let these people stop you! They are your motivation. My God..look at your numbers. You have almost lost half a person!! Just remember that every single cheat could put you right back to where you started and there is nothing, no piece of chocolate, no M&M cake, not one thing, that is worth that! Wayne Crannell 250/209/175 Atkins 10/27/01
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets. One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. Dear friend, I too worry about the known atherogenic properties of ketogenic diets. However, it is not simply an issue of ketogenesis vs glycolysis but rather a complex interaction between the two metabolic processes. To simplify the thousands of complex biologic interactions that can vary hourly into one or two basic science studies is missing the forest for the trees. The real question one should ask is "Do sustained ketogenic diets (not ketosis from diabetes) in individuals with glycolated hemoglobin (HgbA1-c) under 5.0 and without exposure to known risk factors for atherosclerosis suffer from accelerated atherosclerosis?". I have yet to see such a study in my 10 years of practice, and doubt there will be one because such a study would be extremely difficult to administer. People are complex organisms with complex social behaviors (which is why we are so fascinating!). pb
But shouldn’t it be possible to run a computer simulation of a ketogenic diet in the context of the average normal body chemistry of an overweight person? Such a simulation should reveal whether the diet actually works chemically to cause weight loss, without regard to the possible long term problems. martin
What are the results of not warning doctors (or patients) about these statin-induced adverse effects? For specific examples, see Smart Money Magazine’s November issue, on the stands now, complete with color pictures of the disabled patients.
Hi, Sharon – I read it and it was pretty frightening. Based on what has already been learned about Baycol it bears a closer look. I don’t want to be one of it’s victims and have cut back from 20mg. to 10mg and then every other day to nothing. I saw my MD just a few weeks ago and mentioned the weakness in my legs and the pain I was experiencing. He said it was probably just leg cramps and offered a Rx. for quinine tabs to relieve that. Wouldn’t you think HE would know if there is a problem with Lipitor ? Guess not. 8-( I plan on consulting with someone else on this…but where to start ? If any permanent damage has been I’m going to be really angry. — Patricia Florida-USA
Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. How long will embarrassment over past mistakes trump doing the right thing now? The AHA doesn’t consider it the right thing.
The AHA is not alone. From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000): "Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail." Source: http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt Pertinent research: http://tinyurl.com/s8mp "This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation." Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under physiological conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with ketogenic LC dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells. Especially concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids. Humbly, Andrew — Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. Unfortunately, the AHA didn’t warn doctors about statin-induced rhabdomyolysis until after Bayer pulled Baycol, after hundreds of deaths.
So you better take heed when the AHA warns you about something. They tend to be late about doing it according to Ms. Hope. — Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. How long will embarrassment over past mistakes trump doing the right thing now? The AHA doesn’t consider it the right thing. The AHA is not alone. From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000): "Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail." Source: http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt
That is your "evidence"?. Barry Sears’ unsubstantiated oral statement over three years ago without any references whatsoever to back it up? You have to do "much" better than that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pertinent research: http://tinyurl.com/s8mp "This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation." Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under physiological conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with ketogenic LC dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells. Especially concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids.
As ha already been shown, this applies only to type 1 diabetes patients as authors mention in their conclusion. The full text of this study is at http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/48/9/1850.pdf A quote from there gives one explanation why this study applies only to type 1 diabetes: "The blood concentration of ketone bodies may reach 10 mmol/l in diabetic patients with severe ketosis, versus <0.5 mmol/l in normal people (24,25)." — Matti Narkia
Please see the last couple paragraphs of this news item. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.23/03-lowcarb.html Although the hypotheses I stated are my own, the intuitive logic is compelling–as the above-reference researcher illustrates. To me, this is by far the most obvious reason why LCers may consume more calories (than LFers) and yet lose more weight. It may not ultimately prove to be true, but isn’t this the logical place to begin the research? The converse to my simple hypothesis would be: "All foods (i.e. no exceptions, ever, anywhere, under any circumstances) are metabolized in EXACTLY the same way, or at least have EXACTLY the same net metabolic effect on EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING". Not particularly likely, IMHO.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :: Why is this such a controversy? Whether or not there truly exists a :: "Metabolic Advantage" as Dr. Atkins used the term, there is another :: very simple explanation. :: :: For some people, if not all people, it MUST be true that: :: :: Consuming 1,000 Kcal of Fructose is NOT metabolically equivalent to :: consuming 1,000 Kcal of Bacon grease. :: :: :: Why not???? I’ll tell you why: :: :: 1. Not all foods have EXACTLY the same absorption in the gut. Most :: of the fructose calories will be used by the body, while a greater :: percentage of the bacon grease calories will end up in the toilet. Do you have a cite for this? I’m not saying it isn’t true, but I’ve never read anything convincing on this. I do know, however, that when I eat lots of fat — stuff floats :: :: 2. The energy USED by the body in metabolizing & processing is not :: EXACTLY the same for all foods. Again, my hypothesis is that :: sugary/starchy foods are much more easily processed by the body. :: :: Even a 1% difference in NET ABSORBED CALORIES (between a low-carb :: and a high-carb diet of equivalent GROSS calories) would be :: significant. I would bet it’s much greater than 1%. :: :: If I’m wrong, then Atkins’ "Metabolic Advantage" seems to be the only :: logical explanation for these results. I like your notions better than the metabolic advantage. I just don’t know if they are true.
Patricia, Glad you read it. Now you know what my husband is going through and what I face every day. Where to start: Contact the UCSD Statin Study – Dr. Golomb (nearly full page photo in the Smart Money article) has information on her website, and is collecting adverse effects. http://medicine.ucsd.edu/statin/ click on ‘contact us’. You can email or call. Read the website http://www.impostertrial.com/, both the section for patients and the section for doctors. Imposter /imp
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